This suggestion was from David Rothstein/catch in various other issues. Advantages:
- Allows for contributions (mainly patches) that were made on *both* sponsored company time and "nights and weekends" time.
- Makes querying on "paid vs. unpaid" contributions much easier; we can't assume that comments made prior to last week are all volunteer, nor can we assume everyone has seen this new UI since it was rolled out and is filling it out correctly.
- Allows for an "It's complicated" state, e.g. someone who's being sponsored by a customer but that customer is under NDA might choose to leave the credit fields blank, but they are not volunteer.
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Comments
Comment #1
joshuamiI like the idea of an explicit checking of "I'm a volunteer" as part of the UI. It should make it a lot easier to track actual intent. This is going to take quite a bit of rework of the attribution fields. If someone selects, I'm a volunteer, the fields for organization and customer should not be visible. That will prevent unintended attribution of work as both volunteer and organization driven.
On a related note, should we have a default that shows when a user's contribution was funded by an undisclosed customer? (This would allow for the NDA example.) Should we have an option for undisclosed employer? (That seems like an edge case, but perhaps there are good examples for this as well.) Should those cases be separate issues?
Comment #2
webchick"If someone selects, I'm a volunteer, the fields for organization and customer should not be visible. That will prevent unintended attribution of work as both volunteer and organization driven."
Well, but the first use case is actually an intentional selection of both. A patch might take me 20 hours to create. 5 of those from my employer, 15 of them on nights/weekends time. I don't know that they need to be mutually exclusive, and perhaps that would help not require major rework to the existing UI.
I think undisclosed organization/customer makes a lot of sense, and provides us with transparency that someone's paying for that person's time, even if we don't know whp. Probably a separate issue for the both of them since they're the same use case, just two different facets. Maybe a last option in the checkboxes for org/customer that's always there?
Comment #3
joshuamiComment #4
Bojhan commentedWhat kind of visual change are you thinking about? I am unsure how to think about this. Does this happen near the field or on another page?
Comment #5
webchickWell, it would need to be in the credit UI on top of the comment somehow, as an alternative to "at organization / for customer." Off-hand I have no idea how to visualize it though, given the sentence assumes an "AND," not an "OR" situation.
Comment #6
drummI like the idea of undisclosed organizations, but can't think of a great UI offhand. If you aren't thinking about having undisclosed attribution, I could see a checkbox labeled "Undisclosed" being confusing.
To properly gain credit when disclosure can be done, an organization could set themselves up with an organization page named "Codename Carbon" and change it when they want to be public. A bit awkward, but does get credit assigned from the start.
Comment #7
drumm"I'm a volunteer" could be wrapping the the UI in radio buttons.
Attribute this contribution:
o I'm a volunteer
o drumm at organization [Drupal Association] for customer [not applicable]
While straightforward, maybe not ideal, it doubles the vertical space used.
Comment #8
drummSo far, no one has attributed a single comment to more than one organization. We could take away the organization multi-select and make that radio buttons:
o not applicable
o volunteer
x Drupal Association
o Neil Drumm Consulting
Comment #9
wim leers#8: it's only been rolled out for a short time — removing that ability now would prevent us from knowing whether it's useful at all?
Comment #10
drummI was never sure if the ability to attribute a comment to multiple organizations made sense in the first place. (Multiple customers isn't something I'd change in this issue.)
Comment #11
drummComment #12
webchickAwesome, thanks!
Comment #13
drummThis is still true with 5,564 attributed comments from the last ~3 weeks.
Comment #15
drummHere's a first pass at the UI. When 'as a volunteer' is selected, that will shorten the summary to:
Comment #16
joshuamiWouldn't "not applicable" be the default state? And as such, shouldn't it be first?
Comment #17
webchickAny reason to make these radios and not checkboxes? I get that so far people haven't used it for both customer + org credit, but that doesn't mean they won't (especially given "push" communication of this feature to all maintainers isn't planned until next week, so right now you're probably only seeing activity from "insiders"). And as mentioned in some comment or another, it's totally feasible that a big patch was done on both company and "nights and weekends" time.
Comment #18
drummMaking the choices mutually exclusive simplifies the UI quite a bit. For example, we don't have to disable or remove "not applicable" when something else is checked.
I see volunteering as mutually exclusive with organization credit. If you are spending work & volunteer time on a single comment, I'd recommend talking to your manager, and making multiple comments for each context.
Comment #19
webchickWell, with checkboxes, "N/A" is just "Don't check anything," so no need for a separate option. But yes, I suppose multiple comments with different attribution would be a valid "hack" to support this.
However, now that I'm not on my phone and can actually look at this properly, assuming #15 is the UI to discuss, I'm not sure why anyone would ever guess to choose "as a volunteer" under "organization," so no, that doesn't really make sense.
What's wrong with #7 again? That seems like the simplest thing that could possibly work. The only concern was vertical space but that seems like literally the least of the issue queue comment form's problems. :)
Comment #20
webchickAnd on the multiple organizations front, I know of at least one contract Acquia has about to start where a contributor is jointly sponsored by both their employer and us for some work. The original intent of Dries's proposal was definitely to be able to capture things like that. So if we want to talk about making organizations single-select I think that should be discussed separately (and ideally a few weeks after the big communication goes out), not done as part of this.
Comment #21
David_Rothstein commentedSomething like #7 looks good to me too.
I actually think doubling the vertical space could be a good thing. Despite its placement, the current UI is really easy to miss... I'm sure a lot of people have been blowing right by it when filling out an issue comment. (I've done that myself a few times even though I certainly know it's there.) If it takes up more vertical space it might be easier to see.
Comment #24
drummHere is an implementation of #7.
Comment #25
webchickSo now we miss the "not applicable" option, which I think would be good to have since that way we know someone set "I'm a volunteer" explicitly versus it just being the default.
We could accomplish this either with checkboxes (nothing checked == not applicable) or with a third option in radios at the bottom, but that will add more vertical space.
Comment #26
drummNot applicable would be leaving the defaults: username at organization not applicable for customer not applicable.
Comment #27
webchickHm, that's still a bit wonky. Once again I don't see people associating "N/A" under "Organization." Organization means organization. It also implies that the setting would default to "drumm at organization ..." and I don't think that really makes sense, given the vast majority of our contributions are actually from people not sponsored by their employer (we know this from the data gathered already).
So can we use checkboxes? :D If not, it really does feel like "Not applicable" needs to be a third option, despite the added space (mayeb it can be floated next to volunteer to save that, not sure). Pinged Bojhan to chime in, in case he has other ideas.
None of this needs to block deployment btw, we could always tweak it later. But since I can imagine you want to be done with this feature already ;), it might not hurt to spend another day or two tweaking it prior to deployment so you don't get people rankled when you "move their cheese" post-deployment.
Comment #29
drummHere's a version with some slightly different copyediting.
I'm not understanding this "not applicable" option. Either an organization is paying you to spend time on something, or they aren't.
Comment #30
webchickSorry, what I meant was the two options are:
o volunteer
o company
One of them has to be selected by default. But we can't assume "I didn't fill this out" is volunteer. That has to be an explicit choice, to separate volunteers from either people who just didn't notice the field, or "it's complicated" cases where, for example, a company is paying me but we're under NDA and I can't disclose who they are. So the only other option is making company the default, set to "not applicable" in both fields, but that's a very non-intuitive default, because most participation is not sponsored by a company at all.
+1 for the volunteer wording changes tho.
Comment #32
drumm(Merges to 7.x-3.x only make the Credit & Committing table header non-sticky.)
We don't have to set a default for this option, it could come blank, and require people to fill it in.
Once you have used it once, the defaults as described in #2451381-2: Refine organization credit selection UX based on contributor use cases kick in, matching the other fields behavior.
Comment #33
webchickYou can do that, but it's mis-using the radio buttons pattern. If someone accidentally selects one of the options there's no way to "unselect" it. Similarly, there's no way to purposefully unselect it in the event you fall into an "it's complicated" situation such as a customer covered by NDA. This is why I suggested checkboxes which has neither of these problems and also allows for contributions done on both personal and company time, which does come up.
But we are officially going around in circles at this point, so not sure I have anything else to add.
Comment #34
Bojhan commentedIs there a reason we would not allow multiple contributions?
I am a bit lost why webchick her concerns are not being addressed. I also really think we should go towards the dialog model that I proposed a long time ago, if this becomes so unwieldy as these screens seem to indicate.
Comment #35
joshuamiI'd like to take a moment to de-escalate the language being used. "Going in circles" and "not addressed" are not helpful to getting a solution agreed upon. A slow response can be caused by a lot of things. Please assume best intentions and a busy schedule. I like you both and want to get this figured out so we can start collecting data.
I agree that radio buttons without a default are less than ideal in nearly all circumstances. The one exception I could think of is the Likert scale on a survey. You don't want to default to a number on a scale as it would skew the collection of the data.
This choice has some similar implications for reporting. We have been testing the impact of radio buttons versus checkboxes on the data collection and see the following:
1. With radio buttons, we lose the ability for a user to choose volunteer AND employer contribution on a single comment. I agree there is a case to be made for the big patch that is both.
2. With checkboxes, we increase the likelihood that someone will set volunteer AND organization contribution as their default comment status. That changes the reporting in one important way. We lose the ability to report on a strict percentage of comments attributed to organizations versus individual. We would instead need to report on 3 states as comments would be volunteer only OR volunteer + organization OR organization. The expectation is that people don't want to take extra steps, so we expect that data will skew towards volunteer + organization for many users that would use this setting.
We are fine with the reporting limitations that checkboxes introduce as long as we understand what that limitation is. We can deploy the checkbox option as soon as next week if no one objects to the effects that will have on the data collected.
Comment #36
webchickI'm really sorry if my comment came across as harsh. I genuinely didn't mean it that way, I just meant we were literally repeating back the same opinions back and forth with no new information and also without persuading each other, so it felt like there wasn't much point in continuing until new information/opinions came in (or you just decided to move forward anyway despite there being disagreements, which of course is your right).
So the concern that people might just be lazy/confused and leave both options checked all the time, thus negating some of the quality of the data is some new information, so that's good. However, I guess I don't personally really see that as all that concerning (maybe I'm missing something). Even if people do that en masse, we can still get org credit, we can still get volunteer credit, and we can even see when people did both or only one or none, and track how common that is.
If we do indeed see that many people are doing both seemingly out of confusion (versus out of intent), then I guess we can revisit this. Probably then it becomes 3 radio buttons, along with "not applicable" (since otherwise there's no way to "undo" credit assignment), and we suck up the vertical space loss (or use fancy CSS to put it to the side of volunteer or whatever).
Comment #37
drummIn that case, selecting "at organization not applicable for customer not applicable" is the correct thing to do. You are making it clear that the contribution is for an organization and/or customer, and not disclosing the specific organization(s).
Anyway, making the two options checkboxes is okay with me too.
Comment #38
webchickYeah, that's a good point. We can already handle that scenario with the existing company option.
Comment #39
Bojhan commentedIt's not really clear to me that not applicable, and not applicable then indicates that I work under NDA. But thats possibly the whole "not applicable" label thats confusing.
If we can switch to checkboxes that would be a good step. I am a little concerned over this UI as a whole, as we are adding these things. To what extent is it possible to move this to a checkbox, it simply won't scale well and take up more and more space.
Comment #40
drummI see not applicable covering both NDAs, and any other reason for not disclosing the organization. Such as, if an organization doesn't want to create an organization page. I don't think we need to get into collecting more-specific data on why organizations weren't specifically attributed.
If there is better copy for that, it would be great.
We're still talking about only the two options as shown in #29. I can't think of other issues looking to add to the UI right now.
Comment #42
drummThis is what it will look like as checkboxes.
Comment #43
webchickThat looks pretty good to me!
Also elevating to major to differentiate this issue from some others, since being able to differentiate paid vs. volunteer contirbutions is something Dries has explicitly asked for.
Comment #44
Bojhan commented@drumm Why can't we show this in a model and just have a "credits" button? We are going from 2 lines UI to a 4 lines UI. Is it in scope to fix this, I might be the only one concerned about it - but the UI is getting quite messy.
I can't think of a better label for "not applicable" at the moment. I hope we can actually usability test this once, because that would really allow us to better understand how this is used.
Comment #46
drummI tried explain that at #2288727-46: [meta] Provide credit to organizations / customers who contribute to Drupal issues and #2288727-69: [meta] Provide credit to organizations / customers who contribute to Drupal issues. I think the UI on the comment form should show the current values, not just "Credits." (Flippant example - do I need to get more tokens to play at the Drupal.org arcade?) Without something to see, will people think credits is something they need to click; and seeing the default value filled in is helpful. As long as the values are all there, let's keep users relatively in-flow and not go into a whole modal.
Comment #47
drummThis is running on https://attribution-drupal.redesign.devdrupal.org/node/2449369#comment-9..., where my last few comments are exercising the checkboxes.
Currently, the only way this shows for others is that credit to organizations & customers isn't displayed if that checkbox wasn't checked. As a commenter with multiple hats, you can toggle the two checkboxes to switch between volunteer & work mode.
We could certainly put "as volunteer" in the "Credit" bubble on comments, and "Credit & Committing" fieldset, but only for new comments with the box checked. I can't think of a good way to backfill this data, older comments would not get "as volunteer" unless edited. I think it might be best to leave it only for collecting data. The usernames continue to be most-prominently associated with the comments, regardless of attribution.
I don't think this should make a difference for displaying credits on user profiles, you should get credit regardless of organizations, volunteering, etc. For showing organization profiles, that box of course needs to be checked.
Comment #48
webchickSorry, I missed this!
The checkbox interaction seems to work well. I tried a few variations.
I think explicitly calling out "Volunteer" in some way in the pop-up would be good, to differentiate from "I just didn't fill in a box" so the variations would be like:
- Attribution: drumm as a Volunteer
- Attribution: drumm at Drupal Association
- Attribution: drumm as a Volunteer and at Drupal Association
Comment #49
drummWe should also consider any pop-up changes in #2450741: Explore the use of icons for showing attribution info in issue queues.
"I just didn't fill in a box" also includes "The box didn't exist when I commented." The popups are hidden enough for that to not be a huge concern. The Credit & Committing fieldset does put all the information in one place.
That said, let's get this deployed to start collecting data.
Comment #51
webchickHm. but the whole point of making this an explicit choice is to differentiate it from "I didn't check options." As mentioned above, we can't assume that == volunteer.
Comment #52
drummWe don't have a way to back-fill data on comments from before this deployment.
Comment #53
webchickRight. I'm saying from this point forward, no reason we can't add the data in the pop-up, yes?
Comment #54
drummI think the pop-up will be okay.
The Credit & Committing fieldset will visibly mix commenters who marked as volunteer with ones that are "missing". That was okay for organizations, because it is something being added. I could imagine this being concerning for volunteer. (Or I could be over-thinking it.)
Comment #56
webchickOh, I see what you mean. Hm. Need to thinker on that.
Comment #57
drummThis is now deployed and the update to back-fill the old data is over half done. Some comments may appear to be missing organizations, when the "organization" checkbox hasn't been updated yet. Comments are being updated newest to oldest.
Comment #58
drummAll the existing comments that have organizations selected are now marked as having been from organizations.
Comment #60
tvn commentedI opened an issue for adding the new type of attribution to the pop up #2504547: Display volunteer attribution with the other types of attributions on issue comments. If there is a need to discuss how to display volunteer attribution in the Credit & Committing fieldset, please open a separate issue.
Comment #61
pingwin4egIt seems that the documentation page does not contain description about this new feature ("I'm a volunteer").
Is there anybody with a strong understanding of this feature who wants to edit that page?
Comment #62
yesct commented@pingwin4eg here is an issue to track doing that #2522752: Update comment attribution documentation page to include "I'm a volunteer" choice
Comment #63
yesct commentedSo I've seen a pattern at least twice now, where prolific contributors dont want to update their attribution (or forget because there is no feedback for them on save #2463979: Show whole comment credit attribution for the comment author on the comment they just saved) and do they check both as a volunteer, and their company.
This is contrary to the purpose of setting it on each comment.
... I guess it does handle the problem we used to have of not having time windows for when a person changed companies...
Anyway, wanted to document how I've seen people using the volunteer checkbox.
Comment #64
yesct commented#2581235: Make volunteer contributions more prominently visible than paid contributions is related.