[policy, no patch] Standardize writing style for Umami in Spanish.

would it help to have a list of tasks of what needs to be done, which files needs to be modified, etc? Meaning, anyone trying to contribute is going to feel confused on where to start, unless you already have experience, which derails a bit the amount of people that could be helping on this. I may be wrong though, but that's what I feel when I try to pick up this ticket to lend a hand.

cheers Eli.

Hello;

Just to get started, I propose working on the english writing standards of the original issue. I think this points can be easily adapted:

• Temperatures to be listed only on C, and should use the ° symbol with no space between the number, °, and C. For example "Caliente el horno a 200°C"
• Use the active voice as much as possible - e.g.
  

  Bata los huevos

  rather than
  

  Los huevos deberán ser batidos

• Don't put preparation in to the ingredient list - IE put "1 cebolla" in the ingredient list, and then chop it in the instructions, rather than list "1 cebolla (picada)". This doesn't apply for ingredients that are bought already processed, eg "tomates triturados".

I feel this points need to be discussed:

• Which "Spanish" to use? Spain's Spanish, or some sort of neutral Spanish? This includes the following aspects...
  • The use of formal vs informal language. On Spain, informal language is prevalent ("tú/vosotros", use of the 2nd person, i.e: "Tú debes cortar la cebolla / vosotros debéis cortar la cebolla)". On the other side, on most (if not all) latin american countries, is the opposite, and the use of the formal "usted/ustedes" and 3rd person is the rule, i.e: "Usted debe cortar la cebolla / ustedes deben cortar la cebolla" with the special case of the "voseo", prevalent in Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay: "Vos debés cortar la cebolla".
  • Different meanings for the same words. For example, a 100% es_ES translation would imply a heavy use of the verb "coger" while a more international translation... shouldn't
  • ... and more...
• The quotes issue: officially, in spanish quotes are the angled ones «» but the reality is that english' double quotes “…” are imposing themselves at quick pace.

This points doesn't apply to spanish language and can be discarded...

• Use oxford commas where possible On spanish, oxford comma is forbidden (see point 1.2.1 of http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=V1EqcYbX4D61AWBBrd)
• Abbreviate units in ingredients list and avoid 'of'. In spanish the "of" is mandatory (i.e. "dos dientes de ajo")

And i think the run on sentences works exactly the opposite in spanish, meaning that

Pueden ser fritos, asados, a la parrilla, hervidos o incluso cocinados en el microondas. Y pueden ser...

is considered worse than using semicolon (or even comma)

Pueden ser fritos, asados, a la parrilla, hervidos o incluso cocinados en el microondas; y pueden ser...

But i will need to research this because i'm not sure...

Hello,

On the interface translation working group we already have a styleguide, maybe it can be used to translate this:

https://localize.drupal.org/node/266

I'm hungry now

#7

Temperatures to be listed only on C, and should use the ° symbol with no space between the number, °, and C. For example "Caliente el horno a 200°C"

According to RAE it should be "Caliente el horno a 200 °C" or "Caliente el horno a 200C". I think first form is better and more usual.

See http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=P6PwuG8FAD6cwKBfCr

Which "Spanish" to use? Spain's Spanish, or some sort of neutral Spanish? This includes the following aspects...

There's no official "neutral" Spanish but I guess it's good to tend to that: not using sentences to tied to one country. However, there are some words that are probably impossible to solve: 'Patatas' is used in Spain for potatoes but in America I think 'Papas' is the winner. Which one should we use? Best option would be to have different versions (ES-ES, ES-AR, ES-MX, ES-PE, etc) but this is not even supported by Core (there's only one Spanish language pack). So we hace to decided here. Probably we should stick with the prefered form of the majority of volunteers, but trying not to use sentences too localized.

About verb tense, imperative should be ok for all: "Corte las patatas en rodajas", "Fría la cebolla", "Deje escurrir la pasta con un poco de aceite de oliva", etc. The form "Debes cortar las patatas en rodajas" sounds informal and weird to me. FIrst example on #7sounds good: "Bata los huevos".

The quotes issue: officially, in spanish quotes are the angled ones «» but the reality is that english' double quotes “…” are imposing themselves at quick pace.

That's why we should use «» :)

I agree on the other points. And I think alvar0hurtad0's link is very valuable.

Temperatures should be listed in F too: there are millions of spanish speakers in the United States.

As @alvar0hurtad0 said, the drupal spanish style guide (https://localize.drupal.org/node/266) is the main manual to localize Drupal.

I think that create different spanishs as ES-es, ES-mx is not a good idea because the languages has to be mantained... It's a project created to show Drupal, I think that we can put the effort in create the best spanish translations that we can but just one.

If we found a new topic to discuss like the temperature (I think that ºC is the more common) we can choose one and add to the guide.

Thanks, @estoyausente @tunic and @alvar0hurtad0. This is the first time I volunteer for any Drupal project, so please be patient if I don't know all the info.

So, to sum up

- There is only one Spanish version (no es_ES, es_MX, etc...) and the issues it generates on grammar, vocabulary and tone have been already adressed on the , so we just need to refer to that guide.
- For punctuation, grammar, etc... we stick to the RAE rules and recomendations.

And this should answer many of the questions that were raised:

- We use formal language (usted/ustedes, 3rd person).
- We used comillas latinas for quotes.
- We separate the ºC from the data (200 ºC).

In my experience with the translation it's very hard to have all cases in mind before translate. I think is more important to have a good process to validate, discuss, store and search the knowledge than a stone-written guideline.

My proposal for this is:

- Use current localize styleguide. (https://localize.drupal.org/node/266)
- Create a rocketchat channel to do quick discussions about specific translations.
- It we need any change on the styleguide, just discuss on the rocketchat channel. Create a message with the proposal, pin to the channel and use reactions to :thumbup: or :thumbdown:
- Do a weekely metting with a strict timebox (if needed).

That's just my proposal in order to have something to reject, accept or iterate over.

I think alvar0hurtad0 proposal is a very good, it feels like is going to make things agile.

idiaz.roncero, you did it very well!

For me these rules are ok, so... can we start with the translations? what do we need? Just a chat channel?

As nobody disagrees (at the momment) I've created the channel it's called #umami-spanish-translation

Please join to https://drupalchat.me/channel/umami-spanish-translation

I think this issue is ready to get checked as fixed.

Next steps?

Following the topics in the English issue, guide I've consolidated the good recommendations from tunic, idiaz.roncero, and alvar0hurtad0. I deferred to the Drupal Spanish style guide in the case of any suggestions didn't match up.

My only personal recommendation was to abbreviate metric units but not imperial units, since my experience is that not all Spanish speakers are familiar with the imperial unit abbreviations, for example cdta/cdts (cucharadita/chucharaditas). But I might be wrong about that.

• Use "neutral" Spanish, following the Drupal Spanish style guide (https://localize.drupal.org/node/266). Neutral Spanish makes an effort to use the most common vocabulary and expressions used throughout the Spanish-speaking world and avoid words and expressions that are unique to a particular place or that can have mixed meanings. For example, if “file” is translated as “fichero” in Spain only, “archivo” should be used instead, since it is used in most of Latin Americas as well as in Spain.
• For punctuation and grammar, follow the RAE rules and recommendations (http://www.rae.es/recursos/gramatica/nueva-gramatica).
• Use angled Spanish quotes (comillas latinas) «» rather than that English double quotes “”.
• Separate complete sentences with a period, rather than a comma o semicolon. (https://localize.drupal.org/node/266)

• Temperatures to be listed in C and F respectively, and should use the ° symbol with a space between the number and °C or °F. For example "Caliente el horno a 200 °C/400 °F“ See http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=P6PwuG8FAD6cwKBfCr
• Use the imperative mood and active voice as much as possible. For example, "Corte las patatas en rodajas,” rather than "Debes cortar las patatas en rodajas.” “Bata los huevos,” rather than “Los huevos deberán ser batidos.”
• Don’t use oxford commas. (see point 1.2.1 of http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?id=V1EqcYbX4D61AWBBrd)
• Abbreviate metric units (e.g. ml, l, g, kg), but write out names of imperial units (e.g. taza, cucharada, cucharadita, onza fluida), since these may be less familiar in some places. For example, “1 cucharadita de sal,” “6 g de sal.”
• Don't put preparation in to the ingredient list - i.e. put "1 cebolla" in the ingredient list, and then chop it in the instructions, rather than list "1 cebolla (picada)". This doesn't apply for ingredients that are bought already processed, e.g. "tomates triturados."

I'd appreciate if others would +1 my vote here. But based on the high level of research and my own personal agreement with using abbreviations when it is fully clear, this is ready to go.

+1! I think that it is enough to start. If we have doubts we can discuss in the drupal.chat #umami-spanish-translation channel.

+1 to "not all Spanish speakers are familiar with the imperial unit abbreviations, for example cdta/cdts (cucharadita/chucharaditas)". Agree. I'm not familiar at all with "cdta"...

+1 to #21!

Can we mark this Fixed then?

Adding credits for real.

I was working on an Umami article at MIDCamp contrib day, and I wasn't quite sure whether to include diacritics (e.g., accents) in path alias. It would be helpful to have some guidance on aliases.