Slack Meeting Nov 24th 2020 [#3184500]

Comment #1

24 November 2020 at 10:28

baddysonja created an issue. See original summary.

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Comment #2

baddysonja

Icelandic

Frankfurt am Main

commented 30 November 2020 at 21:47

0️⃣ This is the first thread of the Decoupled menus initiative weekly meeting. Say hi (even if you're just lurking :wink: ) (edited)

gabesullice	Hi :wave: Gabe here. (gabesullice on drupal.org) (edited)
justafish	:wave:
mirom	Hi :wave: , Miro lurking here :smile: (mirom on d.o)
bbrala	Hiii, Björn (bbrala)
nod_	hello!
jibran	Hola!
lauriii	Hello :wave:
Wesley Klop	Hi! w3ssl3y :wave:
hestenet (he/him)	Hello! Tim from the DA here
e0ipso	Bona tarda! :wave::skin-tone-4:
yoroy	hey :)
baddysonja	hey, checking the threads now (was in a meeting earlier).

Participants:

gabesullice, justafish, mirom, bbrala, nod_, jibran, lauriii, Wesley Klop, hestenet, e0ipso, yoroy, baddysonja

1️⃣ General announcements

gabesullice	@Deciphered and @zrpnr helped identify some popular JS menu components last week (https://www.drupal.org/project/issues/decoupled_menus_initiative?status=2) Thanks!
mirom	Maybe a bit stupid question - those components for react seems to do a lot more than just menus, aren't there any more atomic components which might be used by those which are listed in the issue? (edited)
gabesullice	It's not a stupid question. Do you mean like this: https://react-bootstrap.github.io/components/navbar/
mirom	tbh I don't know, I'm not FE dev, I asked my colleagues to check it. If I'm starting new project and I want to start from scratch, what component would I use? Is that standard use case or is everyone starting with bootstrap or material ui?
gabesullice	Thanks for doing that!
Liam Hockley	I am envisioning that we support the data needed to build either BS, MUI, or Custom menu components. This would, essentially, be an object, or set of JS functions, with all the data you need to map through and create your menu.Aside from that, we would document some clear steps, and provide a reasonable default "scaffold" that you could spin up with an npx command.I know that sounds a lot easier than it actually is. I am confident, however, that we have the talent we need here.
gabesullice	I'm not familiar with the BS/MUI acronyms.
gabesullice	:light-bulb: @Liam Hockley, one of the things that we haven't even begun to address is documentation. Given that you've been on an epic Drupal learning journey lately, maybe you'd like to own the Developer Experience journey for the initiative?
gabesullice	that would cover things like the landing page on npm to developer guides to npx commands.
Liam Hockley	I am definitely cool with documentation. That tends to be a strong point. I feel like we do probably need to figure out some workflows, which would come after we have some code. But I could absolutely start to outline what we would need to tell newbies.
Liam Hockley	BS (Bootstrap), MUI (Material UI). Just me being lazy.

Participants:

gabesullice, mirom, Liam Hockley

Participants:

gabesullice, mirom, Liam Hockley

2️⃣ DrupalCon Europe - Drupal Initiative Keynote representation. @baddysonja has volunteered to present our initiative on Tuesday Dec. 8th 16:30 - 18:00 CET. Anyone else that wants to join? What do we want to communicate? Anyone volunteering to help with creating slides / content?

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Also it is possible to submit contribution topics for promotion / inclusion at DrupalCon Europe, would be great to see menu components in :slightly_smiling_face: https://events.drupal.org/europe2020/contribution
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	oh and BoFs are also open for submission, if you want to bring the meeting into the event to expose attendees to the initiative more, etc.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	there is not a session about this initiative at the event, so having a BoF would help people get exposure and possibly involve new folks

Participants:

Gábor Hojtsy

3️⃣ I've been talking a lot about the proof-of-concept/demo I made. I think there's has been a misunderstanding about what/why I was working on that. I'd like to explain in this thread.

gabesullice	Back at DrupalCon Global, when Dries suggested this initiative. He talked about how a menu component was this small, achievable thing. However, he noted that once we dug into it, we'd face a lot of real work ahead of us.
gabesullice	He used the analogy of climbing a mountain.
gabesullice	You can see it here: https://youtu.be/9ot0rIlhbNE?t=4187 (edited)
gabesullice	If you think about all the features that a menu provides, there are actually quite a few. Like module-defined menu items, editable hierarchies, URL aliases, etc.
gabesullice	One big challenge is that menu data is not served by any of Drupal core's HTTP APIs.
gabesullice	The PoC I was working is not meant to be my proposal for what we ship from this initiative. It's a test bed.
gabesullice	It's a simplified, bare-bones, fully-decoupled SPA using Drupal as its backend. Within it, we can try out different solutions to the problems I listed above and validate our ideas for how things should work. (edited)
gabesullice	Driesnote__live____DrupalCon_Global_2020_-_YouTube.png
gabesullice	What the PoC shows today is that we are able to do all the things that I've checked off on the mountain above ^ (edited)
gabesullice	The sandbox modules and patches that the PoC requires show exactly what gaps need to be filled in Drupal to solve those problems. (edited)
gabesullice	Clearly, all those items at the bottom of the mountain are the biggest challenges ahead. They can't be solved in code, for the most part.
gabesullice	When we decided that we didn't want to ship a menu component and we would rather ship a library that we could glue together with a popular 3rd-party component, the PoC offered a place to validate that it would work.
nod_	Thanks for the clarification, we might want to put this in the FAQ too
gabesullice	After @zrpnr identified some popular react components, I was able to go into the PoC and re-implement the menu with a Bootstrap Navbar component. Thankfully, nothing really had to change on the backend or in the way menus were fetched.
gabesullice	https://github.com/gabesullice/decoupled-navigation-demo-app/commit/01c2...
gabesullice	I have been mentioning this Google doc a lot as well: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LkTeRac_UmEsXNx5du3IfXDwHEeR2nvw9zei...
gabesullice	It is thinking through, in writing, the challenges at the bottom of that mountain and proposing how we ought to solve them.
gabesullice	Thanks for reading my super long thread. I'm trying to get better at communicating :slightly_smiling_face: hopefully this adds more context to what I've been talking about over the past few weeks!
gabesullice
hestenet (he/him)	Thanks @gabesullice. We(DA) would love to support as much of the bottom of the mountain items as we can, and as make sense.
gabesullice	@hestenet (he/him), have time for a quick Zoom? I have a couple concrete questions and things I could use the DA's help on.
hestenet (he/him)	Absolutely!
gabesullice	Update for the public record: Tim is going to contact NPM about how their security team can collaborate with the Drupal security team. (edited)
hestenet (he/him)	:blob_highfive:

Participants:

gabesullice, nod_, hestenet

4️⃣ We have decided on coordinators. Let's talk about decision making (governance).https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C016N3HTHRD/p1606075851197200

Participants:

hestenet, gabesullice, e0ipso, Liam Hockley

hestenet (he/him)	I want to give a big +1 for having a governance model that includes open discussion, but also includes a trusted decision maker/tie breaker who can help move things forward if there is a logjam.
hestenet (he/him)	Ideally that person (or small group of persons) is someone who has both the technical and the end-user experience of what it would mean to implement the initiative's work in the real world.
gabesullice	I think (?) this is making what was implicit, explicit? If so, I'm all for it.
e0ipso	Well, I always saw coordination !== decision making.
gabesullice	ah
e0ipso	coordination is trying to make everyone productive and enjoying their volunteer time in the initiative
e0ipso	while decision making involves gathering points of views and disappointing some ... for very good reasons.
e0ipso	(sorry for the crude oversimplification)
gabesullice	Gotcha
gabesullice	So, if I can repeat your proposal back to you, should we change the project page to say:Front-end lead: @nod_Back-end lead: @gabesulliceCommunity leads: @baddysonja + @Liam Hockley
hestenet (he/him)	In my mind a coordinator(s) absolutely can be the decision maker, it just isn't necessarily always the case. I think successful inititaives can go either way.
gabesullice	I'm thinking of the Team and resources section on https://www.drupal.org/project/decoupled_menus_initiative (edited)
e0ipso	I think there is merit in stating both titles, for extra clarity. But yeah, that is my proposal (which should be challenged if needed)
gabesullice	No objections from me.
Liam Hockley	I would add that, in the case of wide consensus, the decision is made quite easy. The time that a coordinator comes into play, is when a decision needs that tie breaker. Additionally, there is a single point of contact for ownership of decisions.
Liam Hockley	I do think we should still strive for concensus, however. And should proceed very cautiously when a decision is split. As it could indicate a need for further investigation. That would be a core responsibility of said coordinator. (edited)
e0ipso	agreed, otherwise you'll be overthrown #motherofdragons