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By Anonymous (not verified) on
I've been struggling with learning the basics of Drupal 7 and I've managed to get pretty far with my website. But one thing that bugs me is that it's a living hell trying to find what module does what and very often you need a primary module and then additional modules to make 1 task that a lot of times should be in the primary module.
Being Open Source and all is great but what if modules only get developed because they are really really necessary or fun to build and not if they're only necessary. This is the feeling I get when searching for modules and asking for help. A lot of times I get the answer that I should build a module myself. Hmm, that's not really an option since I can't code. If I could code well I would most likely build my own CMS that would be built only for what I would need for my website and nothing more. Now that I can't code I'm stuck with Drupal.
Now I know there's a lot of hard work from everyone that is building Drupal and making it what it is. But seriously in order to become as big as Wordpress it need's to:
- Be easier to use
- Better documentation
- Higher standards on Primary modules
I hope to see a drastic improvement in those areas from Drual 8 and on.
Comments
But seriously in order to
I don't believe that has ever been a goal of Drupal. It will never be as big as wordpress, because it isn't as simple to use as wordpress. But wordpress isn't as powerful as Drupal. So the reverse could be said on a wordpress forum - "in order to become as powerful as drupal...". But in doing so, wordpress would lose the simplicity that it has, and would then lose users.
They are different tools, with different strengths.
As for which modules are built, they are built by whomever wants to build them. There is no guiding force saying 'build this' or 'build that'. And there is no one who is going to say 'don't build this' or 'don't build that'. It's up to site builders to test out various modules and find the ones they want. There are standards for modules, but they are coding standards, not usability standards.
And finally, considering all modules are built and maintained for free, it irks developers to be complained to for their modules by people who don't code them. To steal a quote from someone else (WorldFallz I beleive) it's like if your neighbor cut your grass and you barked at them for not cleaning up the edges.
Contact me to contract me for D7 -> D10/11 migrations.
It's for free yes but then
It's for free yes but then again there isn't any option besides hiring a webdesigner that most likely will build you a Drupal site but charge like $1000 minimum. I've heard that a lot of web designing companies have built a lot of custom modules themselves that they charge you for and therefor don't put them on this Drupal site or otherwise they would loose both customers and money. You see, Open Source only works until someone discovers that there is big bucks to make. That's the sad truth and that is coming from people I know that are working with Drupal professionally.
It's for free yes but then
Your point being?
They are businesses - businesses need to make money or they fail. So I'm still not seeing where the problem is.
It depends on what you mean by 'works'. It works absolutely fine for those of us who are using Drupal to build businesses. If you mean it doesn't work because it's not simple, well then we are back to Drupal not being the right tool for you.
Contact me to contract me for D7 -> D10/11 migrations.
You see, Open Source only
Linux works precisely because there is a lot of money to be made in it, which is why IBM as well as others have invested vast sums in it. Wordpress has lots of good paid plugins often with free alternatives because they make enough money to fund businesses.
Sure if you are looking for sub $1000 or sub $5000 websites, Drupal may be the wrong tool. Core developers are currently working like crazy to release a world-beating enterprise CMS capable of running sites well which cost many millions. This is the path Drupal is on. You may feel it would be better to realign the efforts to compete with Wordpress. There is an argument to be had there, which will be decided in other contexts, not on these forums. I think the argument for small core and for taking on Wordpress head-on has been lost. Fortunately you have the knowledge to know which parts of Drupal will not suit your use case. Now that Wordpress has Views equivalents and Blocks equivalents and decent (paid) multi-lingual support, it makes sense for someone who wants WP to pick it and support it rather than trying to divert Drupal's momentum away from larger and more expensive sites, and towards being a Wordpress competitor (where Drupal would not be playing to its strengths).
According to http://drupalwatchdog.com/volume-4/issue-1/backdrop-cms, WP is good for small sites, Backdrop will be right for small businesses, and Drupal 8 for enterprise users. On the whole I am in favour of Backdrop, and it is likely to be more responsive to your concerns than Drupal 8.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
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How is this different from
How is this different from anything else in the world? If you can't do it yourself, your options are:
1) Hire someone to do it for you
2) Learn to do it yourself
3) Use an alternative method/system
4) Drop it altogether
If you are building a personal project, and don't want to invest the money, then spend some time learning to code for Drupal. It may take you a couple of years, but that's the alternative to paying for it. If you need it for a business, then either the business needs to pay the money, or if it is not economically viable, the business needs to find an alternative method, or drop the idea altogether.
If the system is too advanced for wordpress, drop some of the requirements so that wordpress can handle it. If those requirements can't be dropped, find the money to get the system built, or learn to build it. If that's not viable, then drop the requirement for the website altogether.
Contact me to contract me for D7 -> D10/11 migrations.
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What would have been a better
What would have been a better response? One day website technology will do more, more easily. Ten years ago it would much less. Drupal and Wordpress are among are several pieces of software given as a free gift by programmers who have spent together tens or hundreds or thousands of person-hours writing it, often working late nights and weekends after they have finished making a living. And you are right, none of them are really as good as we would like them to be in an ideal world. As you say, what is on offer is just not good enough. The people writing Wordpress and Drupal certainly agree with you, and this is reflected in massive advances in the past 5 years, which are ongoing. There is no answer to your question 'where do I go for something better', as far as I know, and this can be disappointing, although we will get there soon, if everyone who uses 'free' software does our best to put something back into the system, in whatever way each of us can. And that includes bringing communication skills to the community, if that is what you can offer. The Drupal Association are very much aware of how much the community can benefit from this type of skill, and there are plenty of practical tasks in need of doing, and which will be rewarded with gratitude from within the community, and from people looking in a sense from outside at Drupal who simply consume Drupal, if we are willing to offer those skills.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
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Both Jay and I spend hours
Both Jay and I spend hours each week - sometimes hours each day, answering questions. Does this bring money? No. Many colleagues do the same work as we do, without giving anything back, and of course you are not attacking them. And doing that free work has, as far as I can judge, given me almost nothing in terms of promoting my business, except it helps me learn.
Now, here is a tip from a capitalist scumbag with money for brains, and who wont do shit without being paid (which, BTW, is not the way to keep happy clients!): a little gratitude will illuminate your life. (Not to me - I don't need gratitude, though it is always nice; still I am grateful to Drupal and its developers, despite some very serious criticisms I have of it.)
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
That's the worst response
I didn't make the claim that I expect anyone to join this community, so I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I'd rather give people the real facts of the situation, and let them decide for themselves whether or not they would like to join the community.
1) I am just a Drupal user. I am not a member of any boards, I don't receive any money from any Drupal organizations (though I pay some). As such, I have no expectations that people should join the community, nor any imperative to try to get people to join the community.
2) I'm giving you a real, honest answer. It's not the answer you want to hear, but it's a truthful answer away. You seem to have an expectation that Drupal should be free and easy to use. Drupal is free, but it is not easy to use. And I don't believe it's trying to - on the contrary Drupal 8 makes things more difficult than they've ever been.
Just because you don't like my response, does not mean I'm not good at communicating. On the contrary, I've communicated the points to you accurately, you just do not like that response. Would you rather I lie to you?
I spent years, unpaid, learning Drupal. I wasn't born with this knowledge, and I wasn't paid to acquire it. I spent the time learning it because I wanted to know how to use it, and I wanted to use those skills to build a business to make money for myself, and to support staff through that business (both of which I've done). So if you expect me to feel bad for using that experience that I spent years acquiring to learn money by doing work that other people cannot do because they do not have that experience, you are out of luck.
As John said, I spend hours every day/week assisting people on how to use Drupal. Sometimes I write code for them, sometimes I explain theory, and sometimes I point them at where they can get the information. I ask nothing for this, and the only thing I receive is appreciation (which is enough for me). So your theory is both incorrect, and to be frank, insulting. I haven't done anything to you, I have only tried to give you the truth, and you in turn are insulting me. You say I have communication problems? You may want to turn that mirror back upon yourself.
As for being a capitalist, yes I am. My mother was a single mother who raised me with two siblings, and I had to work for everything in my life. I wasn't handed anything. I had to support myself through university, a move to a new country, and I built my business up from nothing with no financing. It's nice to be rewarded for my efforts, and I'm not going to feel bad for that whatsoever.
Contact me to contract me for D7 -> D10/11 migrations.
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Cool the racist abuse, Gary,
Cool the racist abuse, Gary, or all the effort you have put into contributing to a useful thread will get deleted by the moderators.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
Neither John nor I are
Neither John nor I are Americans.
Edit: Not that there would be anything wrong if we were. Some of my best friends are Americans.
Contact me to contract me for D7 -> D10/11 migrations.
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@pennyc ... Please stop the name calling, insults, and aggression asap or your account will be blocked. Please see https://www.drupal.org/dcoc and https://www.drupal.org/forum-posting if you need info on how to behave in the forums.
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@pennyc
Your time would be better spent learning Drupal rather than trolling members of the Drupal community.
Figure out your requirements and do some intelligent searching and I guarantee you will make progress with your projects. There are many resources available on this site elsewhere on the net. These resources are free but you need to invest your time.
BTW The attitude you project with your comments is really ugly.
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To say the least.
As an American who has volunteered hundreds, if not thousands, of hours contributing to the community I can say that being 'lectured' to (to put it politely) by someone who has ostensibly done NOTHING for the community and is pretty much the textbook definition of a help vampire is beyond revoltingly insulting.
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Thank you developers
It amazes me when I read people complain to the community because they can't find that certain widget they need create a project they are working on... Not slamming the original poster, just validating his concerns to some extent, but also correcting the mindset. I realize some are looking for something akin to self writing code, but from what I've seen with Drupal, one needs to invest their time in learning what this programming environment can and cannot do... and if possible, start learning to code.
There have been some very logical, diplomatic and honest responses to the original poster. Good job guys.
I started learning Drupal about a year ago, when V7 was just coming out, but quit because of complexity and time. So I am returning again to re-learn Drupal and if I haven't said it before, I will say it now...
Thank you and keep up the good work. There are many of us who truly appreciate what you are doing.
Dennis