Drupal 10 readiness meeting / 1 February 2021 [#3193383]

Meeting will happen in #d10readiness on drupal.slack.com.

Hello and welcome to this Drupal 10 readiness meeting!

This meeting:
➤ Is for core and contributed project developers as well as people who have integrations and services related to core. Site developers who want to stay in the know to keep up-to-date for the easiest Drupal 10 upgrade of their sites are also welcome.
➤ Usually happens every other Monday at 19:00 UTC.
➤ Is done over chat.
➤ Happens in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously!
➤ Has a public agenda anyone can add to: `https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3193383`
➤ *Transcript will be exported and posted* to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a :bust_in_silhouette: emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a :no_entry_sign: emoji.

0️⃣ Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself.

xjm	:wave:
daffie	Daffie from the Netherlands (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	hey
hestenet (he/him)	Tim from the DA in Portland, OR :wave::skin-tone-3:
shaal	Ofer Shaal, Florida :sunglasses:
anmolgoyal74	Anmol, India
fathershawn	Shawn from NYC
keboca	:+1: Kenneth from CR
dan2k3k4	:wave: Dan, Zurich
larowlan	lee :palm_tree: :flag-au:
Neslee	Neslee, goa
catch	Nat from the UK.
longwave	Dave, UK, catching up
kimb0	Kim, AU
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Kristen Pol, California, attempting to get back into contribution
gaurav mahlawat	Hi, Gaurav mahlawat, India (edited)
hansa11	Hello :wave:Hansa, India

1️⃣ Do you have suggested topics you are looking to discuss? Post in this thread and we’ll open threads for them as appropriate.

xjm	DrupalCon D10 Readiness Day?
daffie	What to do with deprecations in Symfony 5 that are not used in D9.
xjm	Also, npm packages on d.o! and what this means for de-jQuerification

2️⃣ DrupalCon Drupal 10 readiness day

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm suggested this topic :slightly_smiling_face:DrupalCon is planning to focus programming on initiatives, one of those is planned to be Drupal 10 readiness
xjm	So there will be a specific day where there is a keynote about D10 Readiness, and a couple featured sessions related to it... and contribution time for it? Is that correct still?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Yes (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	content submission deadline is February 14, so before our next Drupal 10 meeting
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	https://events.drupal.org/drupalcon2021/sessions/cfp
xjm	Gábor has suggested a featured session on CKEditor 5 and we'll see if CKSource is interested in presenting that
xjm	Anyone have other ideas for content we should feature?
xjm	I was thinking the keynote might be a more general audience-facing version of @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)’s D10 core convo from DrupalCon EU, but maybe others have ideas
xjm	I also thought a session on the tooling for major upgrades might be good to help site owners and site builders know that the major upgrade is doable
xjm	Even though the working examples will all be about D8 to D9, we will provide the same tools for D10
anmolgoyal74	Is It feasible and advisable to provide decoupled components (with any framework) with in Drupal which can be extended by developers as per their requirement?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@anmolgoyal74 folks in the #decoupled-menus-initiative are working on enabling that yeah
anmolgoyal74	Thanks @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him).

3️⃣ Symfony 5 deprecations that are not used in Drupal 9

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	This has been raised by @daffie
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	not sure why we need to do anything with them?
daffie	When you have a D9 site and no deprecation messages you should easily migrate to D10. When you then have upgraded you get the deprecation messages for Symfony 5 and possibly your site is broken.. Depending on the deprecation in Symfony 5.
daffie	Therefore your D9 site uses functionality from Symfony 4 that gets deprecated in Symfony 5 and removed in Symfony 6. Only the site owner finds that out after he/she has migrated to D10.
xjm	Well, we definitely should present those deprecation messages for APIs used in core. I guess the question is whether we also generically report deprecation messages for them somehow for non-core code.
xjm	Personally I think we should solve the problem for SF5 deprecations in core itself first, then think of how to warn people for contrib/custom code
daffie	The problem is for deprecations tht are not used by core.
xjm	Do we have an issue for this yet? It's one of the SF6 blockers.
xjm	The core part, I mean -- we could add a contrib/custom code followup
daffie	no, was wondering about the policy.
daffie	I can make an issue for it.
xjm	@daffie Please link your issue on both #3118143: [meta] Release Drupal 10 on December 14... or 15... 2022 and the Symfony meta
daffie	@xjm I will do that
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Are we concerned of contrib using Symfony 4 things that are not available in Symfony 6 anymore and not yet deprecated in Symfony 4? So our tooling in upgrade status will not find those?
daffie	Yes, that is essentially the problem. Only if we go for Symfony 6 in D10.
fathershawn	Any help we can give to contrib maintainers will benefit the move to D10 (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Totally. I don’t know if we can mark those APIs from outside of Symfony though.
xjm	We can brainstorm potential workarounds or external tools we could use to address this
xjm	We could also just ask Symfony if they have ideas as well
daffie	@xjm Those are good ideas.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	We may be able to convince Symfony to add deprecations targeting Symfony 6 in point releases of Symfony 4.4?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	not sure of the policy
catch	Would need to have a Symfony 4 replacement so that is tricky.
catch	phpstan might be an option.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	yeah but we need a way then to tell phpstan from outside of Symfony 4 which parts of it are deprecated for Symfony 6
daffie	Created #3196027: Contrib support solution needed for potential Symfony 4 to 6 upgrade, Symfony 5 only deprecations are not available in Symfony 4
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	posted some more musings there
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	assuming Drupal 9 core is Symfony 5 compatible, we could make a dev fork of Drupal 9 for people to test their upgrade process with
daffie	@Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) That would be a great option.
daffie	Maybe we should wait until Symfony 5.4 is out.
daffie	Added it to the list of possible solutions.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	its not particularly easy out of the gate at least, but maybe we can make it easier
catch	We could possibly even branch Drupal 10 on Symfony 5.4 initially
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	That does not help people running the upgrade status style prep on their Drupal 9 sites though.

4️⃣ npm packages on drupal.org and what this means for de-jQuerification

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	raised by @xjm
xjm	So https://www.drupal.org/project/once exists now, and has GitLab CI things that work. Work is in progress to make it publish to npm.
xjm	We have an opportunity as described in #3176918: [policy, no patch] Publishing / Maintaining JS libraries produced by Drupal that do not have a dependency on Drupal to move independent JS code into separate packages for easier maintenance. The JavaScript committers would have access to maintain these packages as well as all other core committers.
xjm	So each time we work on something to modernize the JS and it's not just replacing one external library with another, we should consider whether the JS code makes sense as an independent package
xjm	Interested if folks have examples that would work well for this that are children of #3118154: [meta] Deprecate dependencies, libraries, modules, and themes that will be removed from Drupal 10 core by 9.4.0-beta1
hestenet (he/him)	(subscribing to this thread, heh)
xjm	@bnjmnm or @nod_ might have thoughts on places where this is an opportunity. E.g., is our new autocomplete library (without the BC shim) coupled to Drupal or could it be an independent package? I think we should ask ourselves that question for each issue.
bnjmnm	Autocomplete is very deliberately not coupled to Drupal. It will be a very nice standalone library for any site hoping to get rid of jQuery UI, but not ready to make the full modern React/Vue/Angular plunge
xjm	I think maybe that should be our second JavaScript package then.
xjm	Since we're about to rearchitect the patch anyway, there's a good opportunity here
xjm	Any other issues we can think of? Dialog is logically the next question if autocomplete works
xjm	@nod_ If I create an empty project and repo for autocomplete and start setting up permissions etc., is it okay for me to make you the owner?
bnjmnm	There's nothing about the implementation-so-far in Dialog that would preclude it from doing this as well. This would be a bit more of a blatant "this is a vanilla equivalent of jQuery UI dialog that uses native dialogs instead" vs autocomplete which is a bit more of an original. I image that's not a huge concern, though #2158943: Add a native dialog element to deprecate the jQuery UI dialog
mixologic	@xjm ping me on any repos that need NPM publishing. I have to set the key in an Administrator only form for the time being.
mixologic	(and also enable CI/CD)
drumm	I deployed the thing to enable CI/CD by default for general projects.
drumm	Oh right, there’s also labeling it so CI runners can take jobs.
mixologic	Yeah
nod_	@xjm empty repo sounds good (naming the project on d.o might be challenging though) as far as oportunities go we have eslint-config-drupal that we could put there also to export the js linter settings (possibly the css/postcss stuff too)
hestenet (he/him)	(to reiterate why naming is challenging - changing project machine names is a big pain so please don't make us do it :slightly_smiling_face: )
xjm	https://www.drupal.org/project/autocomplete is available... /cc @bnjmnm. Sound good?
bnjmnm	Looks like home to me!
xjm	:disappointed: why? @drumm @mixologic Do you know why this won't let me make autocomplete when it doesn't already exist as a projecT?
drumm	Project module I expect. That menu path probably does autocomplete when there is an argument. I can double check later.
drumm	https://git.drupalcode.org/project/project_issue/-/blob/7.x-2.x/project_...
drumm	If this important, could spend an hour redoing those menu callback paths.
xjm	@bnjmnm If we have to use a different machine name, would that take more than an hour of extra time, or does it not matter at this point in the patch? And do we have any other ideas for a machine name?
bnjmnm	Does not matter at this point. I’m fine with something very boring but descriptive like accessible_es6_autocomplete
nod_	we don't need the es6 part, accessible_autocomplete is good
xjm	Will create tomorrow if we still want that
xjm	Also I wonder if nod__ sleeps
bnjmnm	O My reasoning for the es6 in the name was to gently distinguish it from https://github.com/alphagov/accessible-autocomplete There's probably a better way to do that, though. That library clearly uses es6 :slightly_smiling_face: . The big difference is the alphagov approaches it in a modern React-y create-the-element-in-js way, while Drupal's is the old school act-on-existing-markup approach.I'd like to avoid any potential mix-ups with that library, but it's not a huge priority for me.
drumm	The same component might be es7 someday, right?
nod_	umm it's the "drupal name" for the rest of the world the library will be @drupal/accessible-autocomplete or something
bnjmnm	This was based on it being the Drupal name. I thought distinguishing it might be beneficial since it's a common naming convention pattern for modules that add JS libraries e.g. https://www.drupal.org/project/masonry or https://www.drupal.org/project/jquery_ui
xjm	FWIW accessible_autocomplete seems fine to me unless we are worried about it being confused with that external project
bnjmnm	Yep, I don't particularly care about the name beyond it being coherent, TBH. shared my rationale in case it was helpful, but if all it does is delay things just pretend I never mentioned it. I'll save my bikesheds for something cooler. (edited)
xjm	We discussed this more and Ben suggested a11y_autocomplete. I'm going to go ahead and create that if it's alright with you @nod_?
nod_	all good with me