| pratik_kamble |
Can we have dedicated Core code sprint alternate week few hours.... |
| larowlan |
see also 1️⃣ 0️⃣ @pratik_kamble |
| amjad1233 |
Drupal Spoon ? |
| jibran |
@amjad1233 What do you want to discuss about DrupalSpoons related to bugsmash? |
| dww |
How do we identify mentors, what kinds of mentors do we want, etc? (Leftover action item from 1st meeting) |
| larowlan |
Anyone interested in running the meeting (like Jibran has done this week). I’m very keen to make it a rotating thing - the more people experienced in doing it, the stronger we are as a team |
| dww |
Does our initiative have any structure? How do we actually make "decisions"? Does anything with N :heavy_plus_sign: votes get approved? What's N? Maybe it doesn't really matter, and there's nothing to actually decide, but it's a little vague right now. Related to thread 6️⃣ on picking "official" targets... |
| xjm |
BTW if folks are actually interested in a "live" commit this evening, I do have something lined up. It's a very trivial issue but is technically a bug and was worked on by initiative contributors. :slightly_smiling_face: |
| jibran |
Added 17 |
| amjad1233 |
@jibran Yes in term of smashing bugs on one of the Drupal Spoon Repos(e.g., migrate_tools) what needs to be done etc ? Or How should I get help or something. I am new to the topic so just thought it might help other devs. |
| dww |
Technically, this initiative is only for core, and core didn't (and won't) move to Drupal Spoons. |
| dww |
So I think that's basically out of scope here. Of course, migrate_* on spoons needs help, but that's contrib, not core. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| xjm |
Yeah I'd strongly encourage us to focus on d.o queues |
| xjm |
Especially as a core and community initiative (are we a core initiative? I think we are...) Core will remain on d.o. |
| amjad1233 |
@larowlan Inviting some maintainers(like yourself) of different module to smash some bug faster. Like invite them on behalf of community as a part of the session. |
| amjad1233 |
^ @jibran Hand in hand with Video meeting session |
| jibran |
@amjad1233 good idea for 1️⃣ 0️⃣ |
| dww |
x_j_m suggested "Reminder: What to do if you find a bug that has security implications" in our agenda issue... |
| jibran |
@dww thanks, for the reminder added 1️⃣ 9️⃣ |
| quietone |
Jibran, for collaboration on 'needs tests' issues |
| larowlan |
@pameeela for smashing the postponed queue |
| jibran |
@larowlan for helping me put this agenda.
@quietone for test smashing |
| jungle |
@larowlan @l_ongwave @a_ndypost etc. for helping reviewing patches |
| Michael |
@jungle, @quietone and @dww for answering my unclear questions and reviewing. Also everyone with great warmth supporting new comers!! :pizzaparrot: |
| dww |
@larowlan for implementing my idea for issue queue links with total counts. |
| hardik_patel_12 |
@jungle @andypost @dww @quietone @larowlan for your valuable reviews. |
| dww |
Maybe this thread needs to have a more broad scope, or perhaps sub-threads...
• What does it mean to have an official initiative target?
• How do we actually decide?
• How do we track them?
• A) 'Bug Smash Initiative target' issue tag
• B) Section or subpage on the initiative page about them.
• C) Monthly (?) "Bug Smash Initiative Targets" meta/plans?
• D) Other/combo? |
| xjm |
I don't know that it's structured enough to need a meta |
| xjm |
I foresee two kinds of things being tagged: issues any team contributors want to solve, and bugs that are critical-nasty-regression things. Like I came here when I broke HEAD. :slightly_smiling_face: |
| xjm |
Maybe a meta though for the "meta" work like issue queue improvements, webinars, etc. |
| xjm |
Like things that aren't bugs themselves, but accelerate/improve our bugfix response |
| dww |
Currently, the initiative page has some suggested starting points for folks looking for things to work on. |
| dww |
(various issue queue links) |
| dww |
The question here is ultimately do we want some other more curated list of "here's stuff someone thinks we should really prioritize"? |
| xjm |
I like @jibran’s idea in https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1592886734315800?thread_t... |
| dww |
And it seems the criteria is exactly that: "someone thinks it's a priority"... so it doesn't really carry much weight, but it's another avenue for folks to dive in... |
| xjm |
err wrong link |
| xjm |
https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1591937429031400 |
| larowlan |
I think focussing on single issues might be a bit narrow, but jibran’s idea of ‘this fortnight’s focus is {x} component’ or ‘{x status}’ or ‘{x priority}’ is a great idea |
| larowlan |
in terms of how we decide that - should we have a poll ? should we let people nominate stuff ? |
| larowlan |
i think working together on stuff makes it more fun than slogging away in isolation |
| larowlan |
so having a ‘focus of the fortnight’ provides that community / team feeling /effort |
| dww |
What's the relation with :dart: threads? |
| xjm |
The same I think? We could pin them |
| dww |
I mean, anyone can open :dart: threads, but I don't think anyone's actually doing anything with them, other than the initial comment traffic that the link generates. |
| xjm |
It's helped me a couple times when there was a serious core bug |
| dww |
Do we tag them once they get enough upvotes? What's "enough"? Do we list them somewhere or just the tag? etc. |
| dww |
And is there any validation, or can anyone tag stuff directly without a :dart: thread and upvotes? :wink: |
| dww |
Other action items:
• Pick a focus for this week
• Add a standing agenda item for "Pick a focus for the next 2 weeks" |
| xjm |
That's a good idea. Folks could pose suggestions and we just pick what gets the most upvotes over 24h. |
| xjm |
And each meeting we just have a thread of suggestions for which queue to work |
| dww |
Maybe it's too soon, but other than the fortnightly focus, are we making any other decisions here? Do we need an issue tag or not? Do we do anything with :dart: threads or just let them hang out in the channel and folks can skim? Someday in the not too distant future, we're going to lose Slack backscroll again, so I'm worried :dart: threads will be very ephemeral. |
| larowlan |
yes that concerns me too^ |
| xjm |
Ooh good point. Should we be scraping the channel as well as meetings? Hrm. |
| xjm |
So, as a temporary workaround, Lee and I proposed having folks who did triage work comment on a dedicated weekly triage meta for credit. |
| xjm |
We can transfer credits including the treasurer when we close a duplicate, but it is not always a duplicate. |
| xjm |
We also discussed whether we should credit closed issues that were not Closed (Fixed). I think this would not be a good idea as it would open up a lot of gaming and make issue management tricky. |
| larowlan |
I think this is a good idea, so I propose we take it to a :heavy_plus_sign: / :heavy_minus_sign: vote i.e ’Do we agree that having a ‘Bug smash meta’ for each week (and another meta to group the metas so there’s a single reference point to find them) and then linking the issues we resolve (other than fixed) to the weekly meta - and assigning credit from each of those issues when we close the weekly meta |
| dww |
My only concern is overall meta churn and bookkeeping work. If we do more "playing with our dogfood" than actual eating, I'm -1. If this is a relatively painless solution that requires very little overhead, +1. |
| xjm |
Yeah I was imagining an honor system, "Comment if you triaged" and a link to the first 1-2 issues. (Doesn't need to be every single thing!) We could use this for stats as well as credit. |
| amjad1233 |
Love this idea. |
| pratik_kamble |
Yep... This would be helpful |
| pankaj.singh |
Yes please, it would be greatly helpful |
| amjad1233 |
@jibran This could be like <#C45342CDD|config> meetups. Where they I think meetup every fortnight and talk agenda plus smash some key decisions. |
| Michael |
Yes please! It will be absolutely amazing |
| larowlan |
@pameeela @xjm any interest in running a triage one? |
| xjm |
Timezones :earth_asia: :shrug: I couldn't at this time of night |
| larowlan |
wouldn’t have to be now. we could just take the lead in organizing an promoting it, could be at any time |
| pameeela |
oh gosh. i'd have to think about what could be included here |
| larowlan |
basically just ‘tag along while I triage some stuff’ |
| larowlan |
very much like the one I did for govcms folks with @sime about ‘this is how issue queues work’ |
| xjm |
I do care about this because I care about triaging in an empathetic way that gives action items. :slightly_smiling_face: But I kind of want to get the RTBC queue back down to one page first before directing my energies elsewhere -- maybe next fortnight I could help |
| xjm |
I actually love doing demos like that at sprints but it feels weird as a recording |
| larowlan |
same, I spent a whole day on that views issue link count JS thing which was time not spent on RTBC queue |
| pameeela |
i'm in total EOFY panic atm but should have some time for this in the new FY :laughing: |
| xjm |
the year is upside down there too! |
| pameeela |
i was thinking about doing a triage session where a bunch of people work on stuff for an hour together. |
| larowlan |
yeah @Michael is keen on that @pameeela - agree EOFY makes sense |
| Michael |
Yes, if an hour or two to work together on understanding how we should determine (or make decisions) on issues in a responsible matter will be awesome. |
| xjm |
I've wanted for awhile to make a list of tools I use for how I respond to issues --I started a blog post series on this awhile ago but it got subsumed under release work (as always...) |
| xjm |
Like I have a toolbox of `git blame` , issue queue archaeology, grep, etc. that I might reach into to use a tool when triaging a particular report |
| xjm |
And I pick and choose which tool is needed when |
| dww |
Some of this could be really valuable as child pages of our initiative page, or sections in the contributor guide that we link from the initiative page. |
| xjm |
There is a lot of rich content there already FWIW |
| xjm |
https://www.drupal.org/contributor-tasks that section -- if there are tasks not covered, we could add them |
| dww |
Yeah, I already added links to some of those. I was talking about your advanced issue reply workflow stuff... |
| amjad1233 |
Inviting module & core maintainers to the session as guest to help smash some bug faster. |
| quietone |
I too would like to know more about xjm's tools |
| xjm |
I don't know how to accomplish this technologically, but this would be huge, especially if it only returned open issues or issues fixed within the past... year, say |
| xjm |
I Am Not A User Interaction Designer but it could have two sections, "Did you mean..." [ in progress bug list, JS-y expanding] "Recently fixed related to your search: [...]" Something along those lines |
| xjm |
I think we would need buy in from infra and maybe someone could take the lead with a sandbox? |
| dww |
There are a ton of old issues on this topic. If someone's serious about getting it working, I can try to dig up the oldest so we don't open a duplicate issue about it. ;) :meta: |
| dww |
Since the last time I/anyone seriously worked on it, we now have Solr on d.o, so that would hopefully improve the backend technology for it. |
| xjm |
Yeah good search is hard |
| xjm |
But even just taking the view results of the `/project/issues/whatever` with that title string could be useful |
| larowlan |
I would be willing to take this on, but the more time I spend on d.o changes is less time on the RTBC queue, so ideally someone else could - I’d be happy to guide/review |
| quietone |
I created an issue recently and was surprised that all the help text at the top didn't even suggest that I search first. |
| dww |
@quietone The help text at the top is per-project... depends on the project maintainers to have good suggestions in there... |
| dww |
I'm totally down to help folks work on this, but I don't have the bandwidth to lead it (unless something changes and someone wants to hire me to work on this kind of thing as my $day_job). |
| quietone |
@dww it was a core issue |
| larowlan |
the example implementation here is stack overflow I think - they do something like this I’m pretty sure |
| kristen_pol |
This would be fantastic. I've worked with Solr and Elasticsearch but unfortunately don't have bandwidth to lead anything at the moment. Very curious though and would love to help test |
| catch |
Issues: https://www.drupal.org/project/drupalorg/issues/1060798 |
| catch |
And https://www.drupal.org/project/drupalorg/issues/19386 (from 2005 no less) |
| jibran |
Discussion can be found here https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1592382798174200?thread_t... |
| xjm |
The title alone scares me |
| xjm |
So the issue here is that the maintainers might consider it wontfix, but people keep asking for it and posting patches? |
| xjm |
When we say it "can't" be fixed, what does that mean in this case? |
| jibran |
Yes, but keeping the issue open is good for knowledge base and search results |
| jibran |
https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1592380919169800?thread_t... explains the problem. |
| pameeela |
i don't see why keeping it open is helpful? do people really use the d.o search and not google? |
| pameeela |
lots of times i find help from issues that are closed |
| jibran |
Solid point. |
| jibran |
FWIW, We also have https://drupal.stackexchange.com/ |
| quietone |
I guess there is no place on d.o for this type of explanation? |
| lendude |
My main concern is the message we send when we set it to “won’t fix”, it’s not like we are against it and we encourage people to find workarounds, so to me that means it is an ‘active’ issue, maybe it just shouldn’t be classified as a bug? |
| pameeela |
ah fair. feature request? Task? |
| catch |
in this case either of feature request or task seems reasonable. |
| xjm |
Everyone can be a mentor :slightly_smiling_face: |
| dww |
At the first meeting, there was widespread agreement we wanted to identify folks that anyone could ping for help. We talked about listing groups of people on the initiative page. Nothing ever happened. ;) |
| larowlan |
so there’s an action item here to call for volunteers to be leads on various tasks? |
| dww |
I proposed this thread to flesh out:
a) What kinds of mentors we want to advertise
b) whom to list for each role |
| dww |
and maybe c) decide on how we approve/accept volunteers. ;) but maybe that goes to @xjm's point that anyone willing to say they're a mentor becomes a mentor. ;) |
| jungle |
To list a list of mentors on duty, update it after the meeting every time if necessary? |
| quietone |
I suggest we decide who the target audience is before listing solutions. Is this for people new to the initiative and asking questions about the initiative itself and how we work or at the other end someone looking for support on a particular bug? |
| larowlan |
for me its the former |
| larowlan |
we don’t want to be a dumping ground for everyone’s personal issue |
| xjm |
Yeah I think reciprocity is important |
| dww |
I thought it was stuff like "Here's an issue that needs tests. I want to help, but I'm not a test wizard. Who can I get help from on writing good tests for a core bug?" |
| dww |
Although initiative onboarding mentor is another possible role. |
| quietone |
'initiative onboarding mentor', i.e. 'buddy' to answer those initial questions ? |
| Michael |
So for people who have personal triaging issue, or need to find help on starting best practice like dww mentioned, it's better to use ? or :ambulance: in the channel right? |
| dww |
For now, yeah. |
| Michael |
Gotcha! |
| quietone |
This is a great idea. If one raises their hand to do this, what support is available to them? |
| larowlan |
we had a call yesterday to come up with the agenda issue and rough items |
| larowlan |
so we’d do the same I think |
| quietone |
What about when and how to get the results and post them? |
| larowlan |
There’s a chrome plugin for it, but I used something different |
| larowlan |
so that might be something we have to experiment with |
| pratik_kamble |
@larowlan Can someone be part of this call for few weeks... before he/she actually runs meeting him |
| larowlan |
for sure! |
| pratik_kamble |
where do we take this calls? Meeting id? |
| larowlan |
next time around i’ll ping you |
| pratik_kamble |
Thanks! |
| dww |
I'm very happy for others to have the experience of this, but if we're ever in need of a facilitator and I'm not booked, I'm happy to do this from time to time. |
| quietone |
I'll do it if we meet in person. |
| jibran |
Very good point. I purposed an idea and got some :heavy_plus_sign: on it but now it is lost in the discussion. |
| larowlan |
Perils of a do-ocracy? we’re kind of making it up as we go-along. |
| xjm |
FWIW this seems fine to me :slightly_smiling_face: |
| xjm |
People will work on what they care about, and we have existing core governance to fall back on if we need to un-stick something |
| dww |
Yeah, exactly. Initiative is totally volunteer. But it's in the context of Drupal governance, so everyone knows the core committers get ultimate say in everything. ;) |
| dww |
So there's nothing really to "decide" as an initiative. |
| xjm |
Not just us, the whole maintainer and peer review network :) |
| dww |
And the answer to 6️⃣ is "doesn't matter, anyone can call any issue an initiative "target" and that only means that someone thinks it's worth working on". |
| jibran |
How can I get a sixth vote on https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1591937429031400 :stuck_out_tongue: |
| larowlan |
@jibran should that be an agenda item? ‘Next week we want to focus on …’ |
| jibran |
Yeah, thinking about that. |
| xjm |
Oops forgot to come back to this. I just wanted to remind everyone that if you come across a bug that you think touches on access bypass, info disclosure, whatever -- before you comment on it or anything, ask a Security Team member for help. |
| xjm |
(Without discussing specifics of the issue in chat) |
| xjm |
A team member can DM you and help you decide whether the issue should be unpublished and moved to the private queue |
| xjm |
The Security Team will then review it and help decide whether the issue should be handled in public or private. Look for a message something like *This issue has been approved for public discussion by the Drupal Security Team* in the IS. If it's not there, or the issue suddenly disappears from your tracker, then you can guess why. :wink: |
Comments
Comment #2
larowlanComment #3
larowlanComment #4
jungleAdd live commit as a part of the meeting?
For those issues tagging Bug Smash Initiative and RTBC'd, usually, contributors will not ping/bother committers, However, Getting RTBC'd is not the end goal, so would be amazing to see them getting committed on live if possible.
Comment #5
dwwComment #6
xjmAdded an agenda item to remind people how to handle an issue that might have security implications.
Comment #7
dwwComment #8
larowlanAdding minutes
Comment #21
larowlanComment #33
larowlanComment #34
larowlanFixing links
Comment #36
quietone commented