Drupal 9 readiness meeting / 16 March 2020 [#3119584]

Meeting will happen in #d9readiness on drupal.slack.com.

Hello and welcome to this Drupal 9 readiness meeting!

This meeting:
➤ Is for core and contributed project developers as well as people who have integrations and services related to core. Site developers who want to stay in the know to keep up-to-date for the easiest Drupal 9 upgrade of their sites are also welcome.
➤ Usually happens every Monday at 19:00 UTC.
➤ Is done over chat.
➤ Happens in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously!
➤ Has a public agenda anyone can add to: `https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3119584`
➤*Transcript will be exported and posted* to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a :bust_in_silhouette: emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a :no_entry_sign: emoji.

0️⃣ Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself.

dww	Derek, core contributor, Update manager unofficial co-maintainer
heddn	Lucas, excited about life
Swati Chouhan	Swati Chouhan, excited to join d9 readllines
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Gábor, core committer
hestenet (he/him)	Tim, Drupal Association, Portland, OR - lurking a bit asynchronously today.
greg.1.anderson	Greg, Pantheon, Composer Initiative contributor, Drush, just observing
xjm	:wave: xjm, core release manager
voleger	Oleh, deprecates all (usually legacy) the things
longwave	Dave, UK
shaal	Ofer Shaal, Drupal-Rector, Umami
mixologic	Hi howdy, Ryan, Drupal Association
mikelutz	Mike
tedbow	Ted, Acquia, core contributor
catch	Nat, core committer
larowlan	Lee, in awe of all the awesome work everyone has done to get to the beta :star-struck:
vuil	Ilcho, Bulgaria (EU), Modules contributor, Follow D9 Readiness updates.
dan2k3k4	:wave: Dan, caught up in other things so reading through everything now

1️⃣ Do you have suggested topics you are looking to discuss? Post in this thread and we’ll open threads for them as appropriate.

dww	Doesn't need much discussion, but #3118087: If any extension has a missing or invalid version, Update manager throws errors and is confused about site update status is RTBC and would be great to land before beta1 is tagged. Lots of people's available updates reports are broken since 8.8.3.
dww	Maybe requires actual discussion: I'm curious about the policy for fixing markup bugs in stable9 theme after beta1. This has been an on-going pain point as I've tried to fix various core bugs. ;) We finally have a good plan on this stuff, but I think the plan still involves "don't touch stableX markup". If so, can we scramble to fix a bunch of markup stuff between beta and RC, or has that ship already sailed?
mixologic	Branching 9.1.x -> are there issues filed for the usual required infra changes (moving issues etc)
xjm	Reminder about beta deadline vs. beta target issues, and specific beta targets, as well as issues that we will land if possible between now and beta1

2️⃣ State of Drupal 9 beta

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	All beta must haves were done last week
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	#3079680: [META] Requirements for tagging Drupal 9.0.0-beta1 is literally closed fixed
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	so according to plans @catch or @xjm will tag the beta this week :)
xjm	It's worth noting that 8.9.0-beta1 will probably be tagged the following week
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Thanks all for your tremendous contributions to make this happen!
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	two weeks ago we were debating if this is even possible :slightly_smiling_face:
longwave	would be good to get reviews on #3117342: Update dependencies for Drupal 9 so we are up to date at beta

3️⃣ Reminder about beta deadline vs. beta target issues, and specific beta targets, as well as issues that we will land if possible between now and beta1

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm proposed this topic
xjm	So: "beta deadline" == CANNOT be committed during the beta phase.
xjm	"beta target" == TARGETED FOR the beta phase, with release management signoff on possible slightly disruptive changes
xjm	beta targets are strategic priorities for the beta phase that don't break the release policy for betas as defined at https://www.drupal.org/core/d8-allowed-changes#beta, or that we have decided to give an exception to
xjm	It will include non-beta-deadline work that is strategically important for the release (like decoupling internal themes from D8 Stable), or stuff that's best suited to be done during the beta phase (like coding standards bulk patches etc.)
xjm	If you have an issue that meets the above policy that seems important to complete before release, especially things related to should-haves from the beta requirements, and they're not already tagged as beta targets, link them and we'll triage them
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	beta deadline issues have a deadline until the beta freeze then which is in roughly 16 hours
voleger	Are those issues fits criteria?:#3107732: Add return typehints to setUp/tearDown methods in concrete test classes
xjm	Potentially, yes. We'll need to evaluate them, but those are the kinds of changes. The second will need some discussion.
catch	#2989745: views_update_8500() inlines configuration changes instead of this being done on config save for bc would be great to land (in 8.9 and 8.8) before the 8.9 beta and needs review.
catch	Also #3103529: Drupal 8.8.1+ and 9 can fail to install in the web browser due to cache pollution

4️⃣ Branching to 9.1.x and its technicalities

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@mixologic raised this
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	first a PSA, we’ll branch to 9.1.x alongside releasing 9.0.x-beta1 (so this week) (edited)
dww	Seems we’re going to be in a weird state for testbot testing cases with multiple “active dev” branches available, too. Eg both 8.9.x vs 9.0.x vs 9.1.x...
mixologic	Those are really just different labels.
xjm	No, 9.1.x will not open for development untiul 8.9.0-beta1 ships
mixologic	This was brought up earlier today in #drupal-infrastructure https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C51GNJG91/p1584363308178700
xjm	Which is next week
dww	Sure, but it’s going to be at best confusing. ;)
xjm	Not this week
mixologic	okay, good to know
xjm	@dww Not addressing you; addressing @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)
xjm	Sorry should have prefixed my message :slightly_smiling_face:
mixologic	@dww shouldnt be confusing. We do need to update what the branch labels mean.
mixologic	https://www.drupal.org/core/release-cycle-overview#drupal9august still had the branch being ’week of the 16th
xjm	@mixologic That's cruft I think from before we decided yo do 8.9.0-beta1 next week
mixologic	Cool. good to know (edited)
xjm	I shall fix it :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	yeah that needs fixing
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	do we have the issue moving issues that DA needs though?
dww	Yeah, we don’t need to discuss much more on the testbot labels. I’m sure you’ll come up with something good. I just meant it’s going to be a bit weird as we have 8.8.x == stable, 9.1.x == Wild West, but not clear what to call 8.9.x and 9.0.x in the middle...
xjm	https://www.drupal.org/node/2383987/revisions/view/11783518/11785254 fixed
xjm	@dww It's not different from what we already have for D7 no?
mixologic	Just that theres more of it.
xjm	There we also have a branch that is bugfix-only with no future feature development
mixologic	If you have a contrib module, understanding why you would test against each thing is good to clarify.
mixologic	like, you dont need to test against 9.1.x unless you are trying out some new feature being introduced there.
xjm	Which is the same as always though
mixologic	“Major prerelease” is probably the best for “getting my module to work on d9"
xjm	Ah, you're saying specifically for the next 2.5 months
mixologic	Major Dev is best for “I think my module works with d9, and I want to make sure that any last minute commits do not affect me”
mixologic	this feels like we’ve got 2 topics in one thread: testing labels and 9.1.x branch.
mixologic	For 9.1.x branch, @xjm, we should probably open an infra meta that has a couple of issues on it: Duplicating testing envs for core (i.e. #13 on https://www.drupal.org/core/maintainers/create-minor-branch) And having the issues for 9.0.x get moved to 9.1.x etc.
mixologic	Maybe other things?
mixologic	(like adding a new branch label for 9.1.x testing and figuring out what to name it.
andypost	For contrib it will need some time frame to set 8.8 as minimal
xjm	@mixologic Not the 9.0.x issues. The 8.9.x issues!
mixologic	Ah right
mixologic	Which is why the issues need to exist
xjm	We'll file it before we open 9.1.x with real commits
mixologic	yeah, just hoping to make sure we remember to plan for it in the upcoming sprint

5️⃣ Policy for fixing markup bugs in stable9 theme after beta1

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@dww raised this, may be interesting for @lauriii if he is around
xjm	So we can make string changes and UI changes to internal themes. Which not right now, but later, just means fixing it in the module. (edited)
xjm	For now we will still have to put the fix in both the internal theme and the module, but those are allowable within reason / at FEFM discretion
xjm	However we shouldn't tinker with Stable 9 markup or CSS, I don't think (or Classy or D8 Stable, etc.)
xjm	Outside the base themes, it depends on whether it's a bugfix, and impact vs. disruption
dww	I'm not talking about tinkering for the sake of it. ;) I'm talking about fixing bugs, some of them serious. I was hoping with beta1 we could say something like "stable9 is here, but it won't be stable until rc1, since we're still hoping to fix stuff." If that's not legit, we'll continue with the "ping Lauriii for a decision on every issue" plan...
xjm	Yes, Lauri's signoff is always required for any change to a stable base theme.
xjm	Including in beta
xjm	Beta means stable APIs
xjm	Stable and Stable 9 are APIs
dww	Okay. Sorry, @lauriii -- we'll continue to bother you for everything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
xjm	@dww Not "everything". Changes to the stable base themes.
xjm	Which is a very very very small slice of the world compared to "everything".
dww	Sorry, I meant "everything touching markup", which is definitely not "everything".
xjm	@dww "Everything touching markup" STILL is a much bigger set than "markup of the base themes" (edited)
xjm	@dww Modules provide markup and so do internal core themes. Both those things can be changed under policy if needed.
xjm	In practice Lauri reviews all the issues because other committers are shit at knowing CSS, JS, and markup best practices. :stuck_out_tongue: but that's different from required signoff to make a change at all.
xjm	If you know of a serious bug in Stable 9, tell us. Because otherwise this is a whole lot of theoretical something. It arlready includes all things that have been fixed in module markup for 5 years.
dww	I've got a big list of serious bugs in our markup, and I've told y'all multiple times in multiple places. :wink: This is a recurring problem. But we've already got an answer to my original question, which is "no - beta means beta" so we can move on. We'll untangle the bugs in their respective issues via the usual process. Thanks for clarifying.
dww	(and there's no point scrambling to try to fix them "soon" since there's no window of opportunity to fix them with less friction).
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	The longer term plan is to introduce a starter kit where the markup would be forked off of it on each site, so we can fix most of whatever we want without needing to have so much BC pain.
dww	Yup. 3 cheers for that plan. (Although then sites have basically no way to get bug fixes, but that's a separate problem).
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Tradeoffs (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Once you worked around the bugs locally, you don’t want to get bugfixes that break your site :smile:
dww	tradeoffs++
xjm	@dww If they're serious bugs in markup, you should be fixing them in the modules
xjm	@dww If you're specifically not fixing them in the modules because you want changes in the production version of stable, you're not thinking in terms of the continuous upgrade path and also shooting yourself and core process in the foot
dww	I am and do. I understand how our process works and why. It's all good, really, we can stop discussing this thread. Thanks.
xjm	Stable 10 WILL be created from D9.last core module templates and CSS
xjm	So unless you know of an actual bug in Stable 9 that is either a regression or exists in spite of the module having already been fixed, it's out of scope for the beta. If however you do have such an issue, it would be important to discuss the specific issue ASAP.
xjm	Otherwise it's just complaining about the past under the guise of asking a question about the present, when the entire point of the decoupling and creating Stable 9 and so forth is to address the thing you're complaining about.
dww	No, I was asking if we could have a little sprint to fix stuff in stable9 before we release it as stable. The answer is no. That's fine. I've moved on. I'm not complaining about anything.
xjm	@dww That doesn't work with the continuous upgrade path as we're implementing it
xjm	For D10 an initiative/sprint/thing on markup bugs during the last minor dev cycle could be beneficial so that the fixes ship internally in the equivalent of 8.8, so that they're available to Stable 10 thereafter

6️⃣ MidCamp sessions and contribution this week are virtual and everybody welcome remotely!

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@mikelutz will present https://www.midcamp.org/2020/topic-proposal/preparing-custom-and-contrib...
mikelutz	I’m looking forward to presenting a remote session on Thursday.
mikelutz	Yes, that one, lol.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	and @Dan will present https://www.midcamp.org/2020/topic-proposal/automate-drupal-9-upgrades-a...
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	then Saturday is remote contribution day where @Dan and @shaal will work on https://github.com/palantirnet/drupal-rector
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I plan to blog about this hopefully today :slightly_smiling_face: I will personally trade a workday this week to attend the contribution day on Saturday (so I can still be with my family on another day while both my kids are full time home due to the pandemic) (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	also MidCamp contribution day was discussed on the new Drupal 9 theme channel as well, so @Putra Bonaccorsi @starshaped (she/her) and @brianperry are planning to work on Olivero as part of this day as well
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	so I think this is shaping up to be really exciting :slightly_smiling_face:
larowlan	Is there a live stream url?
Dan	MidCamp is going to be on Zoom, but the links aren't added yet.
froboy	@larowlan links will be on session pages (see https://www.midcamp.org/2020/accepted-sessions for a list of all) (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@froboy how far and wide should we promote MidCamp? “Ie. everyone go attend the events”, “now MidCamp is for everyone globally” or would that tank the setup?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@froboy I’d like to promote the two Drupal 9 sessions and two Drupal 9 contribution topics mentioned above and try to recruit people to join remotely
froboy	@Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) our Zoom rooms are set up for 300 users (per room)… If I have to do an emergency upgrade or have a waiting room… I’ll be shocked and amazed. :smile:
froboy	(that’s all to say “share broadly”)
froboy	If things so south on Thursday, we might investigate the option of YouTube streaming on Friday.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	ok
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I would have jumped on the “MidCamp is now global, attend remotely like everyone else” or somesuch being the official line, but I assumed you are just either busy with actually making it happen (as opposed to reposition the marketing) or would have limits :slightly_smiling_face: I am glad the limits may be possible to overcome
froboy	Yea, been trying to spread the word but messaging has been... scattershot. Planning is def taking priority.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I will put together a blog post. Its good to know that I am not unleashing unexpected crowds :smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Boom https://twitter.com/gaborhojtsy/status/1239957900451295235?s=20 :slightly_smiling_face:
froboy	@Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) :100: ! I love the bonus graphic
froboy	(and thanks for the kind words)
froboy	@Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) is it cool if we steal the graphic for our emails?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	sure :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I took the base one from the email and overlayed the ticket thing :smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Ideally I wanted to express that its free and online, but that would have been too much butchering the image, so went with the free “sticker” :smile:
froboy	“Just enough design” :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Haha you may want to raise the zoom limit ;) https://twitter.com/drupal/status/1240192412468883456?s=19
shaal	- "let's make this the biggest #Drupal event in history." (no pressure)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	;)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I think they meant biggest virtual event :D
froboy	Nope @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)... Biggest. EVAR. :)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	:smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	does zoom allow 5k attendees? :wink:

7️⃣ All new edition of open source “State of Drupal 9” slideshow

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Posted slides and recording at http://hojtsy.hu/blog/2020-mar-16/whole-new-version-open-source-state-dr... :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I don’t think people will have a chance to present this in person anytime soon but to get up to date and to deliver over video in a drupal meetup or company presentation, feel free to use it :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Added plenty of speaker notes