Drupal 10 readiness meeting / 8 November 2021 [#3245824]

Meeting will happen in #d10readiness on drupal.slack.com.

Hello and welcome to this Drupal 10 readiness meeting!

This meeting:
➤ Is for core and contributed project developers as well as people who have integrations and services related to core. Site developers who want to stay in the know to keep up-to-date for the easiest Drupal 10 upgrade of their sites are also welcome.
➤ Usually happens every other Monday at 18:00 UTC.
➤ Is done over chat.
➤ Happens in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously!
➤ Has a public agenda anyone can add to: `https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3241414`
➤ *Transcript will be exported and posted* to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a :bust_in_silhouette: emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a :no_entry_sign: emoji.

0️⃣ Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself.

mikelutz (he/him)	Hey all!
daffie	Hi there
daffie	@Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) BTW it is now 19:09 UTC time
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@daffie yeah I am going off of the core calendar, since most countries moved to no DST now, the meeting is moving in terms of UTC to be the same relative time — updated the channel description and will update the meeting intro (edited)
daffie	It is fine to me to change the time, only I was waiting about an hour ago.
quietone	Good morning!
daffie	@quietone And good evening to you!
Nick Dickinson-Wilde	Nick, he/him, contrib dev mostly and keeping an eye on things for company purposes
andypost	Hey! Andy, contributor
Björn Brala (bbrala)	Hi Björn, jsonapi :)
shaal	Hello, Ofer Shaal, Umami + DrupalPod
larowlan	Lee
kimb0	Kim, AU
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Kristen, California, catching up
Ilcho Vuchkov (vuil)	Ilcho, BG, project / module co-maintainer.

1️⃣ Do you have suggested topics you are looking to discuss? Post in this thread and we’ll open threads for them as appropriate.

daffie

Could we talk about #3248106: [POLICY] Release Symfony 5.4 with which Drupal branch and how much support will it get??

2️⃣ Drupal 8 is end of life

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I posted https://twitter.com/gaborhojtsy/status/1455629130276478987 (an 8 post series)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	A practical result for Drupal 10 compatibility is that Drupal 8 to 10 deprecations should be possible to act on now. (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Without loosing support for any supported Drupal version that is.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Roughly 14k+ of the 37k problems found would be possible to fix. See https://dev.acquia.com/drupal10/deprecation_status/errors?error=%2Ain%20... for the list of 8 to 10 deprecations found in contrib.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	And https://dev.acquia.com/drupal10/deprecation_status for a summary of all of them
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Also, almost all of those 8 to 10 deprecations if not all of them are covered by rector automations!
daffie	What will happen to all the issues that are now for 8.x?
quietone	According to this, the move to 9.2.x. #3247428: Bulk issue updates for the end of life of Drupal 8.x.y
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Yeah those are still to be done :see_no_evil:
daffie	Thanks for the info.
quietone	With my bugsmash has on, now is a good time to for people to review all the issues they follow or created that are against Drupal 8.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Good point, things that do not apply anymore to 9.x should be closed as outdated, otherwise they will move to 9.2.x “silently” and will be harder to audit after that.

3️⃣ Symfony 5.4 support in case we can release Drupal 10 with Symfony 6.0 (edited)

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@daffie raised this
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	issue at #3248106: [POLICY] Release Symfony 5.4 with which Drupal branch and how much support will it get?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@daffie I believe last time @catch indicated the 5.4 beta would be a good checkpoint to open the 10.x branch, so an initial 10.x alpha would be on 5.4 beta possibly
daffie	That is fine, only how long do we want a branch with Symfony 5.4 to be supported. Only at the start for 10.x or much longer?
catch	Only at the start imo. Still needs discussion but I am thinking only dependency updates*, then tag an alpha as a point for ontrib to test against. Then start removing deprecated code and update to Symfony 6 after that.
catch	So it is essentially 9.4 with symfony 5.4 tagged as 10.0.0-alpha1
daffie	Is that what we want site owners to use in 6, 12 and 18 months from now? Or do we want a maintained branch with Symfony 5.4?
andypost	I bet all projects starting next 6 month (and 12 too) will be based on 9.x because of contrib inertia. So 5.4 sounds is the safest ATM (edited)
andypost	Also looking at pace of SF changes probably 6.x sounds like approach too. Legacy custom code will need changes anyway and there's rector this days, so instead of fixing deprecations twice (5.x and coming 6.x before June'22) better to break harder if code using dated SF instead of core's bridges
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@andypost the big question is how do we bridge the deprecated API gaps between 4.4 and 6.0
daffie	To me the easiest and best way is to have an extra 9.4 branch with Symfony 5.4 that will be maintained until the main 9.4 branch goes EOL.
andypost	Main gap is PHP 8, I see it's the hardest transition, so 5.4 with polyfills is very helpful
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Hm, is PHP 8 hard or PHP 8.1 or both?
andypost	I got few huge codebases and 8.0 is hard( 8.1 is just more strict
larowlan	Is this resolved if we make 9.4 or 10.0 use `^5.4 \|\| ~6`
larowlan	But have core-recommended be more specific
larowlan	Our LTS plan for d11 requires 10 to be on sf6
larowlan	Well I guess 9.4 would be 4 \|\| 5
larowlan	Then we could ship a meta package with 5.4 rather than a tagged release
larowlan	E.g drupal/core-transition
larowlan	And document the update process to go via that transition package
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Hm, if you allow 9.4 to use 4 \|\| 5, then it might get updated to 5 for people by surprise though?
daffie	If we do sf4 \|\| sf5 in the main 9.4 branch, do we then also need testbot runs with sf5?
catch	Yeah we can't do that. There's an old issue here, it's had no interest. It only comes up when we get to this point, then it gets forgotten again. #3020303: Consider using Symfony flex to allow switching between major Symfony versions
catch	I don't think site owners need a branch with 5.4, it's for contrib modules with direct symfony dependencies we might not know about. Only sites with tonnes of custom code interacting with symfony directly might need it.
daffie	If a contrib or custom module is overriding some class or method from the stuff that we cannot commit to the 9.4, because it will be a BC break, will need D9.4 with sf5.4
daffie	See all the sub-issues we cannot do in D9.4 from #3161889: [META] Symfony 6 compatibility
catch	Yes, but we know that the majority of these won't affect either contrib or custom code. We also know that none of them break the continuous upgrade path in that modules can add type hints now. The only thing that potentially breaks is getting nice deprecation notices about them, but none of these are used in lots of contrib modules so it's unlikely to be overly disruptive.
daffie	Maybe I am just worrying to much about this and (almost) everything goes smoothly from D9 with sf4 to D10 with sf6. :grin:
catch	The one thing that is hard to predict is deprecations that core isn't affected by, but that contrib is - but again that's probably going to be a tiny number of modules and a tag to test against them ought to be enough.
daffie	@catch You are probably right. Can I mark #3020303: Consider using Symfony flex to allow switching between major Symfony versions as critical as it is needed for getting Symfony 6 in D10?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@catch @daffie we are already running phpstan against Drupal 9 modules for a while :) so at least we know the symfony 4 deprecation affected contribs https://dev.acquia.com/drupal10/deprecation_status/errors?error=%2Amfony%2A
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	We do not have the same data about what they might hit with SF5 to 6 though.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	OTOH this list can provide some guidance as to which projects to look out for for possible issues. (Since these use parts of symfony directly). (edited)
daffie	Would it be possible to do the same for deprecation warnings in sf5.4?
daffie	Or are those deprecation warning only those who we also have in core?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	It does find all the third party ones too. Theoretically we could run it with SF5 if there is a variant of core that could run fine with SF5 (upgrade status is a module that needs to run within the Drupal instance so it needs to be as stable to be able to run it while analysing). Then it's a @mixologic task to make a version of this job that runs with SF5 to gather that data. I can then number-crunch it for you and put it up on a temporary site let's say.
mixologic	I pretty sure you can submit a drupalci.yml that contains some composer commands that does whatever extra you would need.
catch	@daffie I don't think symfony flex is needed - I would like to have it, since it would help with 5.4 \|\| 6 and things like that, but like I said there's no interest and some active opposition on there. If we have to we can just release with >= 6.
catch	"Theoretically we could run it with SF5 if there is a variant of core that could run fine with SF5" this is what I'm thinking alpha1 with symfony 5.4 would be useful for.
daffie	@catch I thought that we will need it for D9.4 with sf4.4 or sf5.4.
catch	@daffie If we want to do that, we'd need it - but again I don't think that's necessary. I think we can tag an alpha of 10.0.0 with Symfony 5.4 - and then that provides a tag that people can test/run phpstan against.
daffie	ok, fine by me. Lets do your solution. :+1: (edited)
catch	the big one on https://dev.acquia.com/drupal10/deprecation_status/errors?error=%2Amfony%2A is Symfony\Contracts - but this is one where we had to provide a forward compatibility layer for it in Drupal 9. We haven't had that with the Symfony 6 changes that I can remember, it's been a lot of adding type hints.
daffie	That one is going to be fun. Can we automate those changes?
catch	It should just be changing a use statement - change record is here https://www.drupal.org/node/3159012
daffie	The change is small, only it need to be done lots of times.
catch	Found this #3226796: Include SymfonySetList::SYMFONY_43 for Drupal 9#comment-14285992