Closed (fixed)
Project:
Drupal core
Version:
9.5.x-dev
Component:
meetings
Priority:
Normal
Category:
Plan
Assigned:
Unassigned
Reporter:
Created:
28 Apr 2022 at 03:34 UTC
Updated:
20 Jul 2022 at 05:04 UTC
Jump to comment: Most recent
Agenda items
Standing items
- Who is here
- Any other suggested topics
- Wins / Thanks / Blockers
- Statistics and functionality update. X new bugs created in last two weeks. Y closed by the initiative.
- The bug I would most like to see fixed
- Update on target items from last meeting
- What should be the initiative focus for the next 2 weeks?
Statistics
0️⃣ Who is here today? Comment in the thread to introduce yourself. We’ll keep the meeting open for 24 hours to allow for all timezones.
| larowlan | :wave: lee au |
| quietone | HI |
| DanielVeza | Daniel - AU :wave: |
| Tinto | Hi everyone! :raising_hand: |
| ambermatz | Hello. |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Kristen, California, trying to get back into contributing |
| lendude | Len, NL |
| catch | Nat, UK. |
| dww | Derek @ TEN7, near Honokaa, HI, US :wave: |
0️⃣.5️⃣ What videos from Drupalcon are you planning to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig676RzJbLo&list=PLpeDXSh4nHjRye9v5rA62R...
| DanielVeza | I struggle with imposter syndrome sometimes, so this looks interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4YDBw0q0WU&list=PLpeDXSh4nHjRye9v5rA62R... (edited) |
| DanielVeza | This should be interesting too, we are using CKeditor5 in a new project currnetly in development https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwDFCLaQVbY&list=PLpeDXSh4nHjRye9v5rA62R... |
| ambermatz | https://youtu.be/dSsav6YZp6w @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) mentioned this talk in the #d10readiness meeting today and it’s on my watch list |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | I already watched the Driesnote when it was published. I liked it but didn't necessarily agree with the “composable core” label |
| Tinto | Definitely everything related to CKEditor 5. Also, some talks about strategy, design systems and dev workflows/tools that I want to watch. |
| Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) | @Kristen Pol (she/her) labels are difficult :) the key features of core will remain in core but "appendixes" will not, instead they will be in starter templates, which would also include various other contribs so it's not really core then :) |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Yep, naming is hard |
| dww | I hope to at least watch the Driesnote. :wink: Hopefully have time for some others, so I appreciate the thread... |
1️⃣ Do you have suggested topics you are looking to discuss? Post in this thread and we’ll open threads for them as appropriate.
| quietone | Is there anything from DrupalCon Initiative Retrospective Portland 2022 that we need to consider |
| quietone | What are we finding is the average time to triage an issue? |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014CT1CN1M/p1652154730396609?thread_t... |
| Tinto | (Not sure if this should go here or in the main chat…)I’m currently spending a few weeks in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and I’m trying to organise a meetup here to get to know some local Drupal people.I was thinking it might be a nice idea to turn the meetup into a Bug Smash Session so I can promote this initiative here and get more people involved in contributing. |
| Tinto | This is how I got started by joining the initiative just last month at Drupal Dev Days and I would love to pass it on. (edited) |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Nice! |
| Tinto | I’ve already reached out in the Drupal Malaysia Facebook group and got a few reactions about people who want to join. I will probably need to prepare a small introduction about this initiative and how to triage issues. And @lendude’s Bug Smash Bingo of course. :smile: |
| lendude | @Tinto nice! Here are my slides from DDD should you need something as a kick off point if you want to do a short intro to the initiative https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1D1BoGKe5INxgsCiFT1jvqMu0FjyPTXHK... |
| Tinto | Thank you @lendude! I was going to contact you for some tips/pointers, so this is a great help. |
| lendude | @Tinto you know where to find me :wink: happy to help! |
2️⃣.1️⃣ Wins - what wins have you had since the last meeting? Share your successes!
| larowlan | pretty stoked with the impact of triaging 10 issues a day via bug bingo https://lendude.gitlab.io/bug-smash-initiative/ |
| quietone | Getting through the Drupal 8 update issues. Made a lot of them PMNMI. |
| ambermatz | it’s a little thing but I did an update to an issue summary and I do like a good issue summary update :D |
| larowlan | I've been tagging quite a few with that, because I don't like doing it, so thank you! |
| larowlan | there's quite a few tagged with both Bug Smash and Needs issue summary update if you're looking for more :wink: https://www.drupal.org/project/issues/search/drupal?project_issue_follow...…]issue_tags=Needs+issue+summary+update%2C+Bug+Smash+Initiative |
| ambermatz | thank you for the link! this is super helpful. |
| Tinto | Closed another core issue last week - and in the process of trying to reproduce the bug, learned how to build a custom module that creates an AJAX form in a block. I love how working on core issues stimulates you to dive into areas of Drupal that you normally probably wouldn’t touch. |
| lendude | Checking the output of the bug scraper to make sure I actually got everything cause I couldn’t believe the drop in number of bugs the first time I saw it, that was nice :smile: |
| catch | Hitting 25,000 is really impressive, like a proper drop in bug years vs. keeping it flat (which was already a big improvement). |
| larowlan | The only issue is that it's taking us away from fixing stuff, but it's all important work |
| catch | I think it helps to focus down on what the actual bugs are. Like when you find two 5-10 year old duplicates both with 50 comments and one or more patches that massively increases the likelihood that the one left open will get fixed. And closing outdated/needs more info reduces the likelihood of more duplicates being created. The problem is that there's probably about 5,000 actual bugs (if we didn't include minor documentation issues and clean-up as bugs, once modules/themes in the process of removal are actually removed etc on top of triage) and we'd need to be a lot lower than 25,000 for it to really speed things up. (edited) |
| dww | Finally carving a bit more time for core work and bug smashing again. Client work and life have been eating most of my bandwidth.Big win is that I'm doing more live music shows, both here in HI near my new life, and back in CA (Oakland June 12th: https://www.facebook.com/events/345998824292540). Kinda terrifying, given how the pandemic continues to unfold :grimacing:, but if I keep never booking gigs, it's gonna be even worse. :wink: |
| dww | re: Needs issue summary update: FYI: We've already got that link under the Needing triage from anyone section on the initiative page as one of the ways to help... |
2️⃣.2️⃣ Thanks - a space for callouts to other contributors who’ve helped you
| larowlan | Thanks for updating https://lendude.gitlab.io/bug-smash-initiative/ @lendude |
| lendude | @larowlan and all the others who worked so hard the last month and a half to make updating the stats so much fun :smile: |
| dww | Thanks to everyone for putting energy into this initiative! I feel like the momentum is picking up. It's like we finally budged the huge bolder, and now that it's beginning to roll, we can actually keep it moving... |
2️⃣.3️⃣ Blockers - what’s getting in the way of your issues / goals
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Been very distracted. Lost my mom in March and feeling unmoored. But I have paid time to contribute so I need to get back to it |
| larowlan | Are you still working Salsa? They have a lot of devs - it would be great to get them all more involved |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Yes, I suggested they provide some structured time for some devs which was just approved so I'll be mentoring them @larowlan |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | I have been mentoring some folks there for the last few months but they didn't have much allocation. Going forward there should be at least some allocation besides my time |
| larowlan | Awesome, please reach out and make introductions, good to have contacts |
| Tinto | I’ve noticed that we tend to use acronyms that might confuse newbie contributors: RTBC, PMNMI, D.O. Should we add ‘Frequently Used Acronyms’ list to the documentation? We can refer to it as the FUA. :wink: |
| dww | Yeah, it can be pretty cryptic in the issue queues. [PP-3], acronyms, etc. https://www.drupal.org/node/add/project-issue/drupal links to https://www.drupal.org/community/contributor-guide/reference-information... which could mention the problem and link off to another page that tries to help folks. I highly doubt people will find it themselves, but at least we can try and we'd have a link to give out. Other possible pages...https://www.drupal.org/docs/develop/issues/fields-and-other-parts-of-an-... |
2️⃣.4️⃣ :loudspeaker: If you helped with the triage since the last meeting then don't forget to post a comment to triage issue on d.o.
| lendude | @larowlan eat your own dog food mate, you aren’t on the issue, with 10 issues a day you must have closed something :smile: (neither am I but I was on vacation so didn’t actually close anything these 2 weeks :scream_cat:) |
| lendude | Oh I lied, I did do 1! |
| larowlan | I don't need the issue credit |
| dww | Yeah, I don't think I've ever added myself to one of those issues, although I've probably triaged something most, if not all, of those 2 week periods we're tracking. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
2️⃣.5️⃣ Approve last fortnight's minutes
| larowlan | #3275197: Meeting of the Bug Smash Initiative 2022-04-26 |
| dww | I added credit for Lendude, and marked fixed. Thanks! |
3️⃣ Core bug statistics - current state of open bugs
| quietone | Today: 2022-05-10
From: 2022-04-26 to 2022-05-10 All bugs Status Count Approximately 408 yr reduction in total number of years of all open bugs. Only bugs tagged Bug Smash Initiative Status Count Approximately 270 yr reduction in total number of years of all open bugs. |
| quietone | And by priorityPriority (goal): actual
Critical (50): 69 |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Wow, beating some goals! |
| dww | Sweet! So happy to keep seeing these results. Thanks everyone! |
4️⃣ Lets check back on our targets and set some new ones (edited)
| larowlan | :dart: normal #1565704: Core Web UI interfaces can go over php's max_input_vars |
| quietone | Of these, only the first one was triaged. It is now PMNMI. |
| ambermatz | How are we pronouncing PWNMI? :wink: |
| larowlan | vote 1 for "Ponies" |
| ambermatz | there’s been quite an effort going into that Views broken filters one over the years. It’d be great to move that one forward in a meaningful way. |
| ambermatz | I’m guessing that max_input_vars issue summary hasn’t been updated in 10 years. I’ll add it to my list. Hopefully get some steps to test in there too. |
| ambermatz | vote 2 for PWNMI pronounced as “Ponies” but in a baby talk voice. |
| larowlan | I think that max input vars one should be a support request |
| ambermatz | ah, good to know |
| larowlan | ah nope, catch clarified why its a bug in comment 33 |
| larowlan | definitely needs issue summary update |
| lendude | +1 for Ponies! But lets also give it a dedicated emoji, :horse: so we can say stuff like “I’ve set it to :horse: ” and really confuse people :smile: |
| catch | The max_input_vars one is really painful. There's a new patch but it has to essentially re-implement form submissions to bypass it which is a bit frightening (although very clever). The long term fix would really be to re-implement the permissions form so it's not the endless grid of doom, but that is also stalled. I think there's only one or more forms that can hit the same issue, but there's no error message or anything when you miss it, just lost data. (edited) |
| larowlan | Yeah I don't like the idea of bypassing PHPs input parsing |
| catch | One possible quick fix, that's not great but would be better than nothing, would be a hook_requirements() at some arbitrary level of max_input_vars() warning it's set a bit low. |
| larowlan | I guess we can work out roles X permissions and know a reasonable value too |
| larowlan | And warn on the permissions form (and the menu form) if it's too low |
| catch | I reckon it is bad enough that special casing core forms would be a good plan, once the limit is raised it's raised for any other forms that could be a problem. |
| catch | I don't think we discussed actually special-casing one-off forms before, but there's no reason why not, we know which ones are going to hit it. |
| larowlan | I'll update the issue tomorrow with that idea |
| catch | Did a brief comment too for now and tagged for issue summary update but don't have brain for issue summary update yet, maybe later. |
| dww | These look fun. :grin: I'm still planning to circle back to #1894286: System updates are executed without priority when I finally have some breathing room for a bugsmash target. If I get that unblocked again, I'll see what I can do on any of these... |
| dww | p.s. I updated the section about how official targets works on the initiative page, now that we have a system. :wink: |
5️⃣ Help me - Is there anything you could use a :hand:
| dww | Anyone have time to review (and maybe RTBC?) https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/85494 ? 16 yo major. |
| larowlan | put on my list, but its back out past 60 items again (including that content moderation i18n one fwiw) |
| dww | Thanks! Ideally we can get it to RTBC before it gets to the front of your list. :sweat_smile: |
6️⃣ Let's look back at PMNMI issues that we can close this fortnight
| larowlan | https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1650673690598859?thread_t... |
| larowlan | Items over 3 months start at https://www.drupal.org/project/issues/search/drupal?project_issue_follow...…]%5B1%5D=any_9.&version%5B2%5D=any_8.&issue_tags_op=%3D&page=3 (edited) |
| larowlan | Items over 12 months start at https://www.drupal.org/project/issues/search/drupal?project_issue_follow...…]%5B1%5D=any_9.&version%5B2%5D=any_8.&issue_tags_op=%3D&page=6 (edited) |
| larowlan | The template is here https://www.drupal.org/community-initiatives/bug-smash-initiative/issue-...…]sue-after-a-year |
| larowlan | I'll try and tackle a few of these each day, there's 4 pages (200 odd issues) that are >12 months that we can look to close (edited) |
| quietone | Oh, the other point to mention is that if the issue can be closed it should be done by someone other that the person who set it to PMNMI. Just as a precaution that something isn't closed accidentally. |
| dww | @larowlan I wanted to :thumbsup: above, but it seems like your time as a committer would be so much more valuably spent doing something other than this task. :grin: Just about anyone can do what you're proposing, but only you (sort of) can clear out the #bugsmash RTBC queue... |
| dww | Please leave the low hanging fruit for other / new contributors, and you can focus on those coconuts 30 meters up in the palm tree, okay? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: |
| larowlan | https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1652180329056979?thread_t... |
| dww | I know it's all important work, and I appreciate it. But given our division of labor / responsibility / access, I'm advocating that you focus more on fixing (via commit) and let others make progress on the pony triage (which basically anyone can do). :wink: |
| larowlan | I tend to see triage as something I can do on my phone on the couch while watching TV at the end of the day. Committing is something I need to be more focused |
| larowlan | so if I've not had time in the day because of work, it still something I can do to keep things moving without much hassle |
| larowlan | but that aside, agree with what you're saying |
| dww | Gotcha. In that case, carry on if you wish.p.s. Feel free to give yourself a break and actually not think about Drupal while you're unwinding at the end of the day. :hugs: |
7️⃣ What text do we want to show in the 'Bug Smash Initiative' term description
| larowlan | this shows up when hovering over the term in the issue queue |
| larowlan | I think what we have in the channel summary would be a good start |
| larowlan | cc @rachel_norfolk @mradcliffe |
| darvanen | This channel summary? |
| darvanen | Agree it's good. While it may seem self explanatory I think it's worth actually describing the initiative? Maybe just the first line from the intro page at the top of the summary? Community Initiative to fix known bugs in Drupal Core.(edited) |
| lendude | Yeah that first line sounds good, although I’m not sure we are all about the ‘fix’ anymore :slightly_smiling_face: |
| darvanen | I suspect the 'fix' will come back when there's less low-hanging fruit to be gained by 'triage' |
| lendude | Yeah, possibly. I’ve been using ‘address’ mostly in my presentations, which is nice and vague :wink: |
| dww | Harvesting the suggestions above into a concrete proposal:Community Initiative to address known bugs in Drupal Core. Read https://www.drupal.org/community-initiatives/bug-smash-initiative for an introduction. We meet every second Tuesday at 0400 UTC in #bugsmash on Drupal Slack.The rest of the Slack channel description seems irrelevant for the d.o issue tag description. Is this still too long, or is this much text about normal for "special" tags? |
| larowlan | Is that something you can work with @rachel_norfolk ^ :thankful: |
8️⃣ Is there anything from DrupalCon Initiative Retrospective Portland 2022 that we need to consider via @quietone
| larowlan | perhaps these points: |
| larowlan | Difficult to include “Drive-By” contributorsAbility to include people who have to juggle work commitmentsDifficult to follow what’s going onMilestones, progress, status, needs |
| quietone | For the first, I think another thread to discuss what works/what doesn't work or what is needed. |
| quietone | For the second we do update the #goals page regularly. Although, I guess we could at least change the name of the page to 'Goals and progress' or something like that. |
| dww | Glad there was some retro, and glad y'all are bringing it back to this meeting. Good points to consider. Thanks! |
| dww | Renamed that page to "Goals and Progress". |
8️⃣ .1️⃣ How do we encourage greater participation from “Drive-By” contributors
| quietone | prompt reply is probably a good start. |
| larowlan | Can we add an automated message to people who join the channel from the bot? |
| larowlan | looks to be an option for that (probably while we're on the paid plan only though) |
| quietone | A welcome message is a good idea. |
| quietone | Some of the language dww used in this thread could go into the initiative page. |
| ambermatz | +1 I was really impressed by the warm welcome, language, and tone @dww used in that thread. Setting a great example. |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Maybe we can get more drive by contributors this way? https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014CT1CN1M/p1652154730396609?thread_t... |
| ambermatz | I saw your idea @Kristen Pol (she/her) in #d10readiness too. I’ll mull it over this week (way too sleep-deprived today). I have to be careful about what I say with regard to event planning. (I don’t want to promise something and not be able to follow-through.) But I’m thinking the problem over. |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Appreciate the brain cells mulling it over @ambermatz :) |
| dww | Thanks y'all! Appreciate the positive feedback. Glad to be setting an example. I see there's another thread about the idea, so I'll continue there. |
| dww | I agree that some more structured regular ways to contribute might be good. Our "triage office hours" don't really seem to be happening anymore, right? Or am I just missing them? :sweat_smile: Maybe we could breath more energy back into that? And/or the other kinds of things @Kristen Pol (she/her) is proposing.I'm not sure what else we can do specifically to foster "greater participation from “Drive-By” contributors". It seems like a really hard problem to solve, since we don't have much in the way to "give away" as encouragement for participation. I keep coming back to review swaps being the best thing we have to offer. So if a drive-by contributor is trying to fix something, attempting to hook them with a :recycle: to both encourage fixing their thing, and nudge them into helping fix something else, seems like a good way to foster "greater participation". I think we do this a lot already, but maybe we can do it even more? |
| dww | Totally welcome a brain storm on ways to make it more obvious that we welcome / encourage / thrive on review swaps.Since we have "See :dart: pinned items for this fortnight's target issues" in the channel summary, how about adding "See or open :recycle: threads for review swaps"?Add something more about it to the "Working on the Bug Smash Initiative" page.Encourage folks to post their unresolved :recycle: links in the 5️⃣ Help me - Is there anything you could use a :hand: threads each meeting.Other? |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | I was thinking about adding Triage meetings / office hours as an example contribution event but I wasn't sure they were still happening... though that doesn't prevent me from adding it as an example |
9️⃣ What are we finding is the average time to triage an issue?
| larowlan | I'm getting through 10 in about 30-60 minutes. But sometimes I'm just adding tags and moving on if I can't contribute anything meaningful. Seems to bring more activity, especially the needs re-roll tag |
| quietone | That is a good reminder about still tagging even though one can't contribute otherwise to the issue. |
| quietone | It certainly takes me longer, I'd guess 3x as long. |
| DanielVeza | Ah I haven't been tagging if I have felt like I can't contribute much to the issue. I'll start doing that' |
| larowlan | Yeah the goto tags for me are:Bug Smash Initiative (of course) - because we touched itNeeds reroll - if the patch is oldNeeds issue summary update - if there's a lot of conversation in the comments not covered in the summaryNeeds steps to reproduce - self explanatoryNeeds tests - if there's a patch with no testsNeeds manual testing - if there's some conjecture about how to reproduce itNeeds screenshots - if its changing CSS or UI |
| DanielVeza | Thats would be a good list for the documentation I reckon if it's not there (edited) |
| larowlan | Oh, and remove non-helpful tags that duplicate other fields like status, component, category |
| quietone | I guess that would go on the template page. And it could link to the complete list of special tags. |
| larowlan | I added a section |
| larowlan | I'll add the link now |
| larowlan | https://www.drupal.org/community-initiatives/bug-smash-initiative/issue-... please review |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | It probably takes me about 5 to 10 minutes per issue if there's a lot to read |
| lendude | (warning statistics nerd alert) Yeah dunno about average, since the standard deviation tends to be of the scale, but as a ‘mode’ I’d go for about 5-10 minutes each |
1️⃣0️⃣ Some of the language dww used in this thread could go into the initiative page.
| larowlan | Perhaps @clau or @dww could make those edits? |
| dww | Definitely, thanks. Working on it right now. |
| dww | Added a How to join section at the very top of the page.Expanded the Tagged for the Bug Smash Initiative section to include more specifics on who/why to add the tag.I think that's everything worth keeping, but let me know if anyone has suggestions for other edits (or better yet, please make them yourself). :wink: Thanks! |
1️⃣ 1️⃣ I had a thought which may or may not be a good idea... I was thinking about creating a d.o community project called "contribution-events" (or something like that) where people can create issues for office hours, porting days, etc and then organizers, mentors, and attendees could get credit for their work.Then trying to promote this to see if some companies would allocate perhaps 2 hours/month to host some sort of contribution "event" on an adhoc or, better yet, regular basis. via @Kristen Pol (she/her)
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Thanks for adding! |
| larowlan | we ran a couple of remote sprints for Drupal South the last time around |
| larowlan | if it is the leg-up that someone needs to make the jump from observer to participant, its worth it |
| darvanen | Drupal South sprints usually spur a good 3 months of activity from me, then I get bogged down in other stuff and/or lose enthusiasm, this idea sounds good to me. |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | I created the Contribution Events community project and would welcome feedback on the project page and the issue "components" before I advertise it more widely: https://www.drupal.org/project/contribution_events |
| darvanen | Looks good to me, grammar nit: I'd put an 'of' after organization, i.e.:for promoting the organisation of and participation in contribution events |
| (anonymous) | Comment Redacted |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | @darvanen Good catch, thanks... will update |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Added an issue and add credit for you @darvanen #3279800: Get feedback on Contribution Events projects page |
| darvanen | Unnecessary, but thank you :slightly_smiling_face: |
| dww | Added some feedback there. :wink: |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Thanks!!! |
| Kristen Pol (she/her) | Yes, definitely would want to add co maintainers… let's make an issue to discuss separately :+1: |
Participants:
DanielVeza, ambermatz, Kristen Pol, Tinto, Gábor Hojtsy, dww, quietone, lendude, larowlan, catch, darvanen
Comments
Comment #2
quietone commentedAgenda item: From https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C014QES6HSQ/p1650995984475439 Adding a description to the Bug Smash Initiative tag so it becomes a special tag.
Comment #3
griffynh commentedComment #11
larowlanComment #13
larowlanComment #15
larowlanComment #17
quietone commentedComment #18
griffynh commented