Closed (fixed)
Project:
Drupal core
Version:
9.0.x-dev
Component:
meetings
Priority:
Normal
Category:
Task
Assigned:
Unassigned
Reporter:
Created:
2 May 2018 at 11:27 UTC
Updated:
8 Aug 2018 at 23:12 UTC
Jump to comment: Most recent
Moderated By: drpal
- This meeting is chat-only. There is no video or audio component.
- We leave about 5 minutes between topics, sometimes more, so that people who are multitas- The meeting is threaded, so please keep an eye on thread notifications (this may not pop an alert depending on your settings.)
- Please DM me or @justafish if you would like any items added to today’s agenda
1️⃣ Please introduce yourself if you’re attending today’s meeting!
| prestonso | Preston, New York :flag-us: |
| drpal | Matt in :us: |
| lauriii | Lauri in :flag-th: |
| lendude | Len, lurking from :flag-nl: |
| mrjmd | Matt also lurking, SF :us: |
| webchick | Angie from Vancouver, BC! :canada: |
| mglaman | Matt in :us: |
| justafish | Sally in :uk: :female-guard: |
| stevector | Steve, mostly lurking from Milwaukee, WI :us: |
| alexpott | alex in can't-find-the-emoji-i-want-land |
| drpal | @alexpott just use :earth_americas: |
| dawehner | Daniel from UTC |
| gabesullice | joining late, probably just to lurk |
2️⃣ @justafish Can you give us an update on Nightwatch?
| drpal | If anything has changed since last week. |
| drpal | |
| justafish | @lendude has kindly been reviewing the issue for us. We have one little thing left if someone wants to dive in |
| justafish | @dawehner how is the installer looking? |
| justafish | also I have this patch applied to a project site and it’s working great :+1: :partyparrot: |
| justafish | @webchick sorry if you sent this before and I missed it, do you have a link to that giant list of stuff you usually manually check? |
| webchick | Yay! :smile: That issue has been a rollercoaster of emotion from the outside… “RTBC! YAYYY!” … “Needs work! OH THE HUMANITY” hehe. |
| drpal | @justafish didn’t you also say this works on circleci? |
| webchick | @justafish let me try and find that again. |
| webchick | @justafish but just note that it’s from WAY early in the D8 cycle so we’d need a new list at this point. |
| drpal | awesome, those would be some great tests to add. |
| webchick | @justafish |
| justafish | thank you! |
| dawehner | I wonder whether we could create a new contributor task for people to work on it |
| drpal | That would be great. |
| dawehner | I'll do that |
3️⃣ An update on the React UI.
| drpal | It’s here, |
| drpal | Some code style changes were added, prettier/eslint airbnb |
| drpal | The permissions page is happening right now with hopefully some more progress this week. |
| drpal | The permissions PR is here, |
| webchick | Dumb question, perhaps, but what are the blockers around this looking… um… prettier? :slightly_smiling_face: |
| webchick | Cos right now this seems like a tech demo, which is definitely great to have, but definitely won’t wow someone from a “this made Drupal easier to admin” POV. :slightly_smiling_face: |
| drpal | @webchick The dblog was the tech demo |
| drpal | We’ll need to know what it should even look like, and what “new” features we want to have. |
| webchick | Sure. So you’re missing a spec, basically? There’s no off-the-shelf like Bootstrappy thing in React to makes a pretty admin thingy? |
| drpal | @webchick there are plenty of styled component libraries. |
| drpal | but since this one will use the drupal-react-components, we’d want to style those there if that’s the direction we want to go. |
| drpal | Or those could be un-styled and just provide a composable structure. |
| webchick | I guess my concern still stems from the over-arching goal of this initiative is to make the admin experience easier, and use React as a component for that. And I want to get us on that path, but no idea where to start. |
| drpal | @webchick A) Decide how we want to style our components. Do we use the same UI language that exists in Drupal right now or something else. |
| drpal | B) Style the ui components we have. |
| drpal | C) implement new features using them |
| webchick | Cool. Is there an issue around A) at all? And who needs to be part of that discussion? |
| drpal | @webchick There is no Drupal issue, but we should open one on the actual drupal-react-components repo. |
| justafish | we don’t have a design from @ckrina yet |
| justafish | but she’s working on it |
| drpal | And anyone who is interested in doing the designy work. |
| justafish | @drpal well I think we might want to integrate that into drupal-admin-ui instead of a separate repo, so let’s open issues there |
| drpal | I don’t think we should integrate the components into the admin-ui repo |
| drpal | It doesn’t make sense to couple those |
| drpal | especially if someone ever wanted to build their own. |
| justafish | they’re not coupled, they just live in the same repo |
| drpal | They could use our components without the entire repo monolith. |
| justafish | you can still do that |
| drpal | yeah, i still think they should be a separate repo. |
| justafish | Not understanding why - we’d have to co-ordinate 2 repos, and 2 separate issue queues. You can still use the components separately with ES6 imports if anyone else wants to use them |
| justafish | + 2 storybook instances |
| drpal | They are two separate projects? |
| drpal | One is a series of UI components, the other is a administrative interface for drupal? |
| justafish | it’s a series of UI components that are specifically made for making the admin interface. The UI components are going to bring in CSS - because of that I think it would be quite unwise to split the repos |
| drpal | ugh |
| drpal | fine |
| dawehner | For me extracting ones we figured things out makes sense |
| dawehner | For now, let's monorepo it |
| justafish | I was just looking for a monorail gif, but this is close enough |
| justafish | CSS - _v annoying_ |
| webchick | This also brings up another concern I have which is so far this team doesn’t have external blessing from the core committers on our roadmap. |
| webchick | Which I think is fine for now, as these problems of routing + whatever need to get figured out either way. |
| webchick | But I’m going to try and get that this week, or at least post the roadmap to that audience to get their thoughts. |
| webchick | Any concerns/adjustments before I do that? |
| justafish | none from me :+1: |
| webchick | Coo, thanks. :slightly_smiling_face: I think the order of operations is: |
| webchick | 1) Run what’s in the draft roadmap () from the other week past core committers first, to get an initial “sniff test” This is llikely to result in either a) “tweak this and this first” or b) “back to the drawing board” but either way, it’s probably good to get a handle on that before…
2) Run it past the general community by updating with our plans and having a discussion about the overall roadmap in the ideas queue for a couple of weeks. |
| webchick | And then hopefully 3) We all hit the ground running in Nashville with something our team and the core committers and the community can stand behind and get more people involved! |
| webchick | @justafish / @drpal this sound like an ok plan to you? |
| drpal | :thumbsup: |
| justafish | :+1: |
| webchick | Rock. :slightly_smiling_face: I shall attempt to Make It So™ |
4️⃣ What’s possible with WordPress 5.0
| drpal | |
| drpal | cc. @justafish |
| justafish | Just more of a heads up that this is happening. But @stevector is here so maybe would like to start a discussion :partyparrot: |
| drpal | Wordpress is doing a business. |
| stevector | I'm looking for input on what would be helpful to cover around how WordPress is using React in their upcoming editor |
| stevector | For context, |
| justafish | |
| justafish | I :heart: the Table of Contents on the right there |
| webchick | That’s fucking gorgeous |
| justafish | it doesn’t feel very conducive to multi-channel though |
| stevector | I am planning to cover the WordPress community's reaction, which has been a mix of excitement/angst/uncertainty |
| stevector | Yes, one of the main lines of push back has been a concern that this is side stepping fielded data |
| stevector | I compare it to when Drupal went from D6+CCK to D7+fields in core |
| webchick | Would it have to, though? Could those things not be fields wrapped in paragraphs (or whatever)? |
| stevector | Imagine if D7 said, no, we're going to spend a year writing a WYSIWYG instead of fields |
| stevector | there would have been a ton of push back from Drupal devs who used CCK on every site |
| justafish | @webchick possibly, but this is very opinionated, it feels more like something you would build with Drupal for a client, not necessarily out-of-the-box |
| stevector | WordPress has it's CCK equivalents and they feel ignored |
| justafish | so the community has been saying “we want fields” and got this instead? |
| stevector | yes |
| stevector | But the community is so large |
| stevector | That it is hard to generalize |
| stevector | The core developer behind Gutenberg strongly emphasize that the data storage will be pluggable |
| stevector | And the UI can be locked down in different ways |
| stevector | The core devs intend for Gutenberg to be a step in the direction of structured/multichannel friendly data |
| stevector | While also catering to the expectation that the main channel have a UI like this |
| dawehner | One thing we should take out of this is: Should we focus on the content editor vs. site builder experience for now? |
| webchick | Honestly, content author is always biggest bang for your buck, in terms of impact. |
| webchick | Like, a Setting Tray module with actual live preview would be huge |
| webchick | However, at some point, someone made a decision that we weren’t going to touch the front end (which I would’ve disagreed with, had I been there :D) |
| webchick | This boxes us into *only* the admin backend, and there’s far less opportunity for “HOLY SHIT DRUPAL IS AMAZING” experiences there. :disappointed: |
| webchick | Unless of course we also take on “Redo the entire Field UI” or simiar. |
| webchick | And then even still, that’s uid 1 on every site that gets to benefit, not uids 2 - 99999 |
| stevector | One of the points I plan to make in the Core Conversation is that this Gutenberg editor illustrates that WordPress prioritizes the content editing experience |
| webchick | Yep. Hence their user base exploding. :slightly_smiling_face: |
| stevector | And Drupal prioritizes site building |
| stevector | Gutenberg is a content editing tool that will evolve into a site building tool |
| webchick | I would say Drupal prioritizes developers, more. is a whooooole lot of unhappy site builders. :wink: |
| stevector | (I think) Layout Builder is a site building tool that will evolve into/get used as a content editing tool |
| webchick | For example, developers making the decision to use Composer for making their dependency management easier. Suddenly all site builders need to grapple with Composer to do basic installs and updates. |
| stevector | Fair point :slightly_smiling_face: |
| webchick | That could be with Layout Builder. Layout Builder + Quick Edit, certainly. |
| webchick | Not sure how well (if at all) those two currently play, tho. |
| stevector | I think once a content editor gets accustomed to per-node layouts, then customizing layouts is part of their content workflow. |
| stevector | Gutenberg has the concept of blocks within blocks (basically layouts) |
| webchick | interesting. |
| stevector | I think a lot of clients want the concept of re-combinable design components |
| stevector | And many Drupal agencies do that with Paragraphs |
| webchick | Yep, the way Paragraphs module has taken off in D8 is a strong indicator of that. |
| stevector | Or Panels |
| webchick | And the way Paragraphs gets morphed into a layout management tool :scream: |
| stevector | right |
| stevector | Will a client pick Paragraphs/Drupal if they see Gutenberg pitched by a WordPRess agency for the same thing? |
| webchick | Depends who’s making the decision, but unless it’s a techie (less and less likely these days) who can understand the benefits of structured data vs. blobs of data, ummm. No. :slightly_smiling_face: |
| stevector | Agreed. |
| stevector | So if the data storage is pluggable, and the UI can be locked down to varying degrees |
| webchick | We also run aground of WP’s popularity (because they focused on the content author experience the whole way along). No one’s gonna get fired for picking the platform 25%+ of the internet uses. |
| stevector | I can imagine a best of both worlds |
| webchick | @stevector Yeah? |
| stevector | Yes, imagine for the content type "Blog Post" only a small subset of "block types" are available |
| stevector | And for the content type "Landing Page" more layout oriented blocks become available |
| stevector | imagine for the content type "Recipe", all the structured fields are present, you just have to fill them out |
| webchick | Right. |
| webchick | I’m trying to picture the interface for exposing/hiding blocks on a particular bundle |
| stevector | Panelizer has had that concept at least since Drupal 7 |
| stevector | I remember it as a sea of checkboxes :slightly_smiling_face: |
| webchick | Yeah, that’s about what my picture was too. :wink: |
| justafish | I think also something important to bear in mind is their governance is wildly different to ours |
| justafish | if Automattic to decide to do a thing like this they don’t need to build consensus around it necessarily |
| stevector | They do need to write many persuasive blog posts and sell to the community in a similar way |
| webchick | Well, technically, neither do we. Just need buy-in from decision-makers. It just makes things go a lot smoother, in general, if the community’s behind you, hence the focus on consensus-building.
My understanding is WP’s community is not tolerating this change super well, and they might lose some folks over it, because of the lack of focus on consensus building. |
| stevector | There was a 15 minute live demo at WordCamp US during the keynote |
| stevector | yes, this change seems like the most likely potential fork point in many years |
| stevector | A Drupal-port could be done as a contrib UI for Paragraphs |
| stevector | Or just a WYSIWYG replacement |
| stevector | Or a few other options |
| stevector | But I'm reluctant to suggest that too strongly because it would still be a huge amount of work. |
| stevector | At the very least, for the core conversation I want to highlight what Drupal will be competing against soon |
| stevector | And point out potential lessons for not alienating the community while adopting React |
| webchick | +1. Thanks a lot, Steve! |
| ckrina | Thanks for all this info&ideas Steve! This is going to be really useful! |
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