Ok, I'm at my wits end trying to figure out what the right way to go is. Maybe you do.

Around 6-8 months ago, I had a coder start work on a PHP/MySQL backend project. The project was to basically construct a backend that would be accessed by clients via a common central admin panel (housed on one domain). All the sites would then share a common set of features (edit text, add pictures, podcasting, photo galleries, etc).

The problem is, that coder created a few modules - then fell off the face of the planet - leaving the project stalled. That was over 6-8 months ago. Later, I realized what he set up was all XML based, not MySQL based, like what was originally planned. Not saying that's bad, just wasn't what was asked for. But, he certainly took his money no question.

My issue at this point is complicated, at least it is to me. I started a business almost 5 years ago - then it kind of blew up in my face. I started this as a design company, it just turned out that after making one site, that's what everyone else seemed to want. So things started going that way as far as focus. The issue there is that I am a designer - not a coder. Yes, I understand some basics of PHP and Javascripting, etc. And yes, I can deal with CSS. But I am not professing to be that good at any of it :) - but I can operate in a CSS environment, and I know what to look for in PHP generally, etc. I just can't write it.

The problem is - I really, really need to somehow get a "backend" package done. Again, the original idea was to have a PHP/MySQL "centralized" system set up to where the clients would log into that one point (a domain) - make their changes - then it would update their site - all the domains are housed on the same dedicated server currently. But given my luck with coders in the last year, that's looking farther and farther away... but is still the eventual goal most likely. And so you understand, that is simply due to the complications of cross domain/server situations - nothing negative meant towards Drupal what so ever.

At this point though, I've already lost quite a bit of money and a hell of a lot of time looking for PHP coders, only to wind up having them screw around for months and nothing get done, or simply walk away with money and not ever reply to emails or calls. Most recently, I met with a guy here locally on several occasions and he explained how he could get most of the situation solved in a month or so. Great. I gave him his requested money upfront - then... nothing. I called him, no answer. Or I would reach him and he had to go. Then he was sick. Then he was being sued from his ex wife. Then he was sick again and pooping all over the place. (His words exactly). Then after a month of that go around - he tells me he doesn't have time to do it at all and would send the money back. 2 1/2 weeks later, I'm still waiting, but 2 days ago he insisted that he sent a check that day. So here's to hoping.

This is where Drupal becoming a possible option for me has come in. From the outside looking in, people seem to think my "little" company is much larger than what it actually is. It's just I presently work somewhere between 90-150 hours a week trying to keep up with everything. 90 hours is a good week by the way. 80% of that time is consumed by just running manual updates of sites, that's the killer. This is exactly why I need a backend because my body and mind cannot take much more punishment.

My concerns about Drupal (please hear me out before beating me up with a 2x4 please)

1. Can it support larger sites? - from my research, yes. RCA Records uses it, Lifetime TV, SONY, AOL, etc. But is that "Drupal" or "Drupal on Smack"? And yes, I mean that lovingly. I'm just curious if those sites are basically Drupal straight from the box, or some seriously ramped up mega coded version - as in, RCA or Lifetime has a full time dedicated Drupal staff?

2. Is it possible to share only certain info over a certain number of sites using Drupal? I know, I've heard and read some on the "multi-site" feature, but I don't know that much about it yet.

The other big concern I have, actually - probably the biggest concern of all to me and my company, is what will the client think? My issue at this point is that in the particular industry I focus on, my company has a very short list of "competition" out there - who would love to undermine my company or our position with any client. All of them have their own special "customized" backend’s. One using ASP for theirs ... some others using PHP. Some are better than others - all are much larger than my company with employees all over their buildings, and god only knows how much money available to bury me.

My fear is that after all this time of me telling clients that we are "working on a solution so they can access this and that on the site"... that if all of sudden it winds up being Drupal, that could be an issue with them. Yes, I would certainly turn right around and mention companies like Google, Yahoo, AOL - all big money makers that all use Drupal in one form or another. But regardless, and yes, I've even had this question asked to me when I brought Drupal up - "isn't it free? Can't I just download it myself? Why do I need to pay you for that?" - I'm fully aware how much hard time and dedication has went into this Drupal project, and I respect that and any and every person who has ever worked on it, and continue to do so. A key note about why I’m concerned about it – the clients pay a fee monthly for the site. That is where my complication factor begins. In reality, they are paying the fee for the design work of the site, and there would still be a multitude of elements that I would be dealing with monthly. Regardless though, I have concerns that they will get that “what do you mean I’m paying for something that’s free” mentality, and be blind to what they are really paying for.

I'm just posing these questions, and explaining my story and situation to people here to gather thoughts and opinions. I guess my point is - I don't want to lose face, nor do I want my company "marked" by an industry that may not understand - or are too afraid of any change from the "establishment", etc. Honestly, given what I really need a backend to handle - and as expansive as it needs to be - I'm concerned Drupal may not be a long term solution - but I think it can be though. Forgive my non-knowledge on this topic.

Regardless - 2 days ago, I wound deciding to try to get a site converted to Drupal to see how it performed, etc. Considering I'm not sure how to do that "conversion" - I posted a project on elance.com to see if I could find a Drupal person to help do that. In that project listing, I stated that I was just looking for someone to set up Drupal to look like the existing website - the overall look/feel of it - and that I would load in all of the content, etc. I have been getting bids back on the project and I was completely stunned. I got 3 bids over $4,500 to convert the site... one bid over $6,400... I am beside myself. Seriously, I never expected it to be a 5 minute, easy as pie job to set it up - but damn. $6,500?? To set up one page in Drupal?? I don't even know what to say. And yes, I even asked them to confirm that they understood it was for just one page and they said yes.

Maybe I've got it wrong though. Maybe giving Drupal a theme... or converting a page from a static site, or from a PSD is uber complicated. Again, I'm not a Drupal wiz kid, that's why I'm here. I'm here because I need help and advice. I need honestly and clarity - I need to understand what I apparently do not. The way I see it though, if it truly does cost that much to set up a Drupal theme, etc - then it would most likely be better for me to go back to the PHP route because there are at minimum 11 sites that I need to try to convert as soon as possible - and at least another 5-6 on top of that. Again, I'm a small business – not tiny, just in a “gray” area of not big enough to do what I need to, but not considered “small” usually. But, it’s still a small company, regardless of what it may look like on the outside. And yes, I'm aware that I haven't shared that yet... maybe I will at some point. For now though, I'll leave that as confidential. But I will say that it has nothing to do with Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, the porn industry, the presidential race, or donuts. However, it does have something to do with storing bodies in my trunk from time to time.

... for those of you who took that last line seriously... seriously, I'm not being serious about that. Besides, I drive a truck... so I don't have a trunk anyway.

Here I've gotten all long winded. For all of you in the Drupal community that have made it this far though my rambling madness, please accept my humble apology. I just need a solution. I need help figuring out what I should do to actually begin moving forward with this. Any advise, tips, suggestions are beyond the point of welcome as far as I'm concerned and would be most appreciated. I’m actually searching for “how-to’s” concerning setting up Drupal myself – and I’ve installed a copy of it to mess around with. Haven’t gotten very far at all though, and I’m afraid it will take longer to learn what to do than I actually have on some projects. That is if I don't blow something up first.

Final notes: part of the reason I haven't mentioned the name of my company, or the industry I deal in is because it never seems to fail - that as soon as I do, what was once $500 becomes something that costs $5,000. That is not to say that I am trying to be a "cheapy" and get something for free, because I am not. My company just looks bigger than it is - and that was my goal originally. But that has come back to haunt me in more ways than I can count. Yes, I do deal with what most would consider a "lucrative" industry - but in reality, that "lucrative" word should be replaced with "in disarray". It's a confused industry to say the least, but not lost, and not broke. But only willing to spend so much right now. But for whatever reason, once some people see the clients, or learn of some of the contacts I have, instantly, they get that "goldmine" look in their eyes, and I know then, the conversation may as well be over. And I find myself left between a rock and a hard place trying to figure it all out.

Thanks for reading. Even if you are left completely speechless at this point, I appreciate your time. Thank you for reading, and thanks in advance for any comments. I’m usually much less insane as I may appear now.

Comments

joehenriod’s picture

http://www.gomediazine.com/tutorials/create-a-killer-band-site-with-drup...

I came to drupal and web design from graphic arts also.

With your current knowledge in web design, I think you should be able to copy the look of pages quite easily.

Take a look at the linked tutorial and then you can decide what you think it should cost to replicate sites.

Functionality is a whole seperate issue than a site's look. Good luck !

dm29’s picture

thanks for the link. I will have a look at it. And honestly, if I had more time to really delve into the program, I'm sure I could figure out what goes where and what reads what... but the "business" end of things has wound up consuming so much of my time that it seems there's next to none left sometimes. But... I certainly appreciate a solid link/tutorial so I can at least get a run through of the power of the entire Drupal app - then I can figure out the time part of things later I guess.

doomed’s picture

I HONESTLY didnt read your entire post.

But from the first paragraphs, Drupal seems to do what you want.

Also, Packet Publishing - http://www.packtpub.com/ - has some nice easy to understand books.
If you go here - http://drupal.org/handbooks - you will see some ads on the right side with links to the books.

doomed’s picture

Oh, and dont forget there's plenty of professional coders around that lend their services for a fee.

Check the forums - http://drupal.org/forum .

sepeck’s picture

Using Open Source software is a viable way to reduce the cost of your business. In fact, at the recent Drupalcon there were many businesses showing this as fact and reality.

1. Sort of. For the most part they are stock Drupal, but there are some very real issues with incredibly large scale sites. There are available fixes / tweaks for these but you have to be involved in the community to really know where to look. But these are also for really large scale sites. Not knowing what you consider large, I can;t really answer you and I am not the large site performance guy, just know about their existence. There are several case studies here and some make occasional mention of solution http://drupal.org/success-stories

2. Multi-site is not shared site, it is shared code base which can help in managing updating a Drupal based site. That said, there are several techniques to share user tables across sites or other solutions. Some easier then others. All possible. Note: In some cases Organic Groups can be this solution but really depends on your specific needs if it is appropriate.

As to your client. Your client has been using Open Source software for years now. They just may not know it. Apache, Linux, Sendmail, etc. You are currently in the mode of selling your proprietary solution, which is an expensive mode to be in. Get out of it. You want to be in the mode of selling a solution to your clients. That the solution is Drupal (or Joomla, etc) really should be a selling point for your services. If you disappear, fail to provide services, then your client can actually find someone else can't they? They are not locked into some propriety solution where money only goes out.

Your client isn't paying for the software, they are paying for you to solve their problem and implement a solution. That you are using Drupal may or may not matter. I certainly wouldn't hide it, but Drupal is not an out of box complete solution. I love the first line from the projects princilples which actually provides your answer to your client

Modular and extensible. Drupal aims to provide a slim, powerful core that can be readily extended through custom modules.

Depending on your needs, Drupal core may not be a complete solution out of the box. It has elements and you can certainly build complete sites with core (I certainly have), but you do have to know what you are doing :) and often there are some solution already with contributed modules that may just need to be tweaked.

I can't tell you about the cost of a theme. What I can tell you about some of the complexities. Drupal is an integrated CMS. This is very powerful. But the theme itself is part of the presentation of the site itself. Drupal doesn't have a separate 'back end' interface. This results in a need to theme the administrative area as well. Also, what modules you use will have an impact on how a site is themed as all the helper css they add will need to be accounted for.

Most theme shops for Drupal are custom shops, not semi-custom. They do "one of" themes for each customer and that generally also entails analyzing the site itself. There is a new shop or two that have a different model and less expensive generic style themes now. Also, Drupal is 'hot' right now and as a result resource constrained in skilled resources and talent to do this type of work. So the side effect is the same in any resource constrained environment.

No one can make your decisions for you as only you know your needs and willingness to risk. It's also harder when venturing into the unknown, but there are a lot of companies out there now that have their entire business successfully around implementing Drupal sites.

-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain

-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide

dm29’s picture

for doomed - I'm aware that I can hire talent - and have tried to do so in the past, and currently talking with a few people about coming in to work on some things.

Right now, I'm just trying to get a firmer grasp of what is possible. Also, trying to understand what Drupal is and what it does from an execution standpoint. I now have Drupal 5 and 6 installed on my own local server and running various tests, etc to see what happens here and there.

One thing I think I've come to understand is that Drupal 5 may be a better answer for right now given the breath of support and mods for it. Though D6 is the future of the platform, there's just not as much for it yet. Am I incorrect in that line of thinking?

sepeck - thanks for all the tips/ideas. I agree that Drupal off the shelf may not be exactly what will solve the problem - but I know it can be built upon. What I've been weighing is the difference between something custom and some pre-packaged core, such as Drupal. With Drupal, the base would already be there, but it would have to be built upon extensively in some cases I'm sure. However, right away, several "features" would already be taken care of, and a handful more could be readily solved with various modules. For anything custom though, there would probably be much more time invested, along with a lot of money, to get that to a point close to what Drupal does right now already.

What has intrigued me about Drupal for some time is it's depth of capabilities out of the box, then the expansive possibilities onward. On top of that, what seems to be a tremendous community of dupalites everywhere.

What I'm in the middle of this morning in fact is researching "how to" articles on making a Drupal theme. Not because I'm trying to eliminate a project for anyone - but it's something I feel that I can most likely do, I just need to have a much better understanding what does what where and why basically. But I will admit, if that saves me thousands of dollars (as per bids elance suggests) - that's never a bad thing either. I would much rather invest money in someone writing code/modules for something than asking them to "skin" a site, when that's probably something I can do right now, I just haven't put all the pieces together yet.

ericg’s picture

update: doh! re-reading your post more carefully I see you were going to do all data input yourself so my comments below are rather off topic. i'll leave them here anyway... just thought I'd recognize I was commenting on an issue you did not raise.

that being said, I do think you are underestimating all the issues that are involved in your project and the value of skilled labor.

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I've done dozens of large conversions of data from one CMS to another. I've been building web systems for about 13 years, and over past 5 years, drupal has become my primary CMS -- this has led to converting a lot of data from other systems I used to use to drupal.

Many of the larger projects my company works on require import of legacy data from static html pages or older database driven systems.

Currently we're working on a conversion of 3,000 html pages into drupal. On the surface it sounds simple, grab the data, put the html title as the title of the node, place the body of the html in the body and like magic... done.

But, in moving to drupal, we now have a dozen different content types that all need to be treated a little differently; we have taxonomy terms to apply based on various pieces of data; there are inconsistencies in use of html tags over time that need to look consistent in the final conversion which requires not only moving data but manipulating it; information in the html needs to be parsed out and used to define the date of creation of a node for monthly archives to be usable; the list of issues that need to be addressed in a data conversion is endless.

So, I think that you are underestimating the complexity of the task and should take a second look at the prices you were quoted. Depending on the complexity of your data, even the high end of the quotes seems fair to me, as long as they are not just doing a quick dump into one node type without thinking of how to best use drupal for your specific data set.

When you say "what was once $500 becomes something that costs $5,000.." I think you are not really looking at the full picture. If you are looking for honesty, I think you need to start with analyzing your own perspective. When was converting a large data set between two complex systems a $500 project?