Drupal 10 readiness meeting / 9 May 2022 [#3278282]

Meeting will happen in #d10readiness on drupal.slack.com.

Hello and welcome to this Drupal 10 readiness meeting!

This meeting:
➤ Is for core and contributed project developers as well as people who have integrations and services related to core. Site developers who want to stay in the know to keep up-to-date for the easiest Drupal 10 upgrade of their sites are also welcome.
➤ Now happens every Monday at 18:00 UTC.
➤ Is done over chat.
➤ Happens in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously!
➤ Has a public agenda anyone can add to: `https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3278282`
➤ *Transcript will be exported and posted* to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a :bust_in_silhouette: emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a :no_entry_sign: emoji.

0️⃣ Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself.

dan2k3k4	:wave: lurking in Zürich :flag-ch:
dww	Derek @ TEN7
Vighnesh Sadagopal	HI Vighnesh From India , New to this initiative would like to contribute more :smiley:
Ilcho Vuchkov (vuil)	Ilcho Vuchkov, Bulgaria (Europe)
catch	Nat from the UK.
larowlan	Lee AU
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Kristen, California, trying to get back into contributing
gregg_marshall	Gregg lurking from Denver
andy-blum	:wave: Andy in Ohio, US
andypost	Andy ...still in Kharkiv
markie	markie in New Mexico US
ambermatz	Amber, late. :slightly_smiling_face:
kimb0	Kim
shaal	Ofer Shaal, :scream_cat: super late

1️⃣ Do you have suggested topics you are looking to discuss? Post in this thread and we’ll open threads for them as appropriate.

dww	Can we discuss the death of QuickEdit, if it's still possible to deprecate in 9.4.x (now that alpha1 is out), and how folks can most help?
Ilcho Vuchkov (vuil)	Are there other modules to become out of the core… (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@Ilcho Vuchkov (vuil) that is not too specific, which ones are you involved with?
Ilcho Vuchkov (vuil)	Do other modules need to go outside of the core? (edited)
larowlan	How to unblock installing aggregator from contrib
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Any remote contribution events planned for the rest of the year to help D10?
andy-blum	Who has the power to OK a policy change?cc @mherchel[#3251384]

2️⃣ Drupal 9.4.0-alpha1 is out, work continued on 9.5.x and 10.x

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Drupal 9.5.0 will be released alongside Drupal 10.0.0 in December
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Also once the 9.4.0 beta is out, it should be the definition of deprecated APIs other than wholesale module deprecations, which could still happen in 9.5.x.

3️⃣ QuickEdit’s removal from core. Is it possible to deprecate in 9.4.x still? And how folks can most help

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	raised by @dww
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	As per https://www.drupal.org/about/core/policies/core-change-policies/allowed-... are no specific restrictions on what changes are allowed in alpha releases beyond the allowed changes for minors, but additions and disruptive changes are backported to the alpha only at committer discretion, with criticals, strategic initiatives, and product management priorities as the first focus.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I don’t think deprecating entire core modules is in itself disruptive, 9.5.x allows to do that even though it does not allow other deprecations anymore.
dww	Right, but 9.4.x-next is beta1, right? So it’s beta rules we now have to play by...
dww	Oh, you’re saying we can still aim to deprecate it in 9.5.x, even if we don’t get it done for 9.4.0-beta1?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	We are not yet in beta, so we are playing in alpha rules. And yes, you can deprecate in 9.5.x.
dww	For folks that want to help, #3228986: [Meta] Tasks to deprecate Quick Edit is the main place to start. There are 3 open child issues blocking that. 2 of which need reviews, 1 needs work.
dww	I'm still a bit confused about the state of the 9.4.x branch. I thought we typically only plan 1 alpha and 1 beta for each new core minor. So once alpha1 is tagged, isn't the 9.4.x branch prepping for beta1, and therefore, playing by beta rules? cc @catch or @xjm
catch	@dww alpha means that some things might not get backported - like say a massive new API deprecation that affects hundreds of modules, this would end up delayed until 10.1. But in theory anything can be backported. For modules specifically it's better to deprecate as early as possible so sites are warned.
catch	See also https://www.drupal.org/about/core/policies/core-change-policies/allowed-...,(BC)%20for%20public%20APIs.
dww	All duly noted, thanks. But that still doesn't answer my direct question: Is it true that the 9.4.x branch is now effectively in "prep-for-beta1" mode, and therefore, "playing by beta rules"?
catch	@dww did you read the alpha section in the link?
dww	Core developers should plan to complete changes that are only allowed in minor releases prior to the alpha release for inclusion in that minor. Following the alpha release, such changes will be committed primarily to the next development branch instead.which is my understanding, and seems to contradict @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) above:We are not yet in beta, so we are playing in alpha rules.which is why I'm asking. :wink:
catch	@dww those are the alpha rules though. Anything can get backported but it's no longer the default.
dww	Either I'm being really dense, or having a very hard time explaining my question. Maybe it doesn't really matter, and perhaps I should just move on...Lemme try 1 last time. Given the line:Following the alpha release, such changes will be committed primarily to the next development branch instead.I interpret that to mean "after the 9.4.0-alpha1 release, the usual alpha rules no longer apply and we only backport stuff that qualifies for the beta rules". That directly contradicts what Gabor said (I think).I'd love to be really clear that once next-core-minor-alpha1 is out, that next-core-minor.x branch is now in beta rules.
catch	@dww the rules for what can go in are the same as what's allowed in a minor, what actually gets backported is up to committer discretion.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	alpha1 turns things from “everything committed to this minor branch” to “everything PRIMARILY committed to the next minor branch”, but some stuff gets backported, while beta dials down backports to really absolutely necessary things (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	so its not yet beta rules, the beta rules are stricter :slightly_smiling_face:
catch	Or to put it differently alpha rules are designed to minimise disappointment that things didn't get committed but also minimise annoyance that things did get committed (edited)
dww	Okay, thanks for all the clarifications. This does seem a bit more subtle and magical than I was expecting. However, "committer discretion" is always a good thing, and I shouldn't get too wrapped up on wanting something more deterministic and clear. Thanks again and sorry for the confusion...
catch	It is kind of intentionally subtle so there's not a hard cliff edge when the beta is released.
catch	A lot of the alpha/beta differences have been trying to avoid crunch/commit freeze dichotomies. Similarly getting rid of rc-specific commit rules and using the same as patch releases.

4️⃣ How to unblock installing aggregator from contrib

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Raised by @larowlan
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I talked about this briefly with @mixologic at DrupalCon, and he said he also believes this is due to how its still in core, and the facade has the mapping.
mixologic	Im actively working on this atm to figure out a way to solve this for all core modules going forward
mixologic	Idea is to rename all of the core submodule namespaces to be drupal/core-aggregator so that when things move into/out of core there is no composer ambiguity
dww	That would also solve issues like #3266476: Ensure that quickedit does not get special core treatment I presume?
larowlan	Thanks Ryan!
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@mixologic would that solve it for the long term though? or are you proposing some breakage is worth it?
mixologic	Yes it will solve for the long term.
mixologic	And might not break things
mixologic	the problem is when we have those modules the declare a dependency on a core module
mixologic	especially if they do funky things like say the core version for the dep in the info.yml dependency on the core module. like say user >= 9.3.1
mixologic	All deps on core modules get translated into an implicit dependency on drupal core, and only modified if theres a constraint
mixologic	I have to check if there are metapackages for core modules. But there shouldnt be, and do not need to be.
mixologic	(i.e. nobody needs to composer require drupal/views and have it hit a metapackage that redirects to core.
mixologic	although maybe its a custom module with that dep in their composer.json. unlikely, but possible.
mixologic	so that could be a break.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Hm, is there a way to search contribs for this? The search pattern https://git.drupalcode.org/search?search=-+drupal%2Faggregator&nav_sourc... does not seem to find any results, but it probably should . This is I assume a gitlab limitation for this kind of pattern.
mixologic	easier if I query the db for instances.
mixologic	mostly because Im looking for constraints and not just any instance
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	well, it does not find any instance anyway
mixologic	yeah, it seems to think you want a project just because there is a slash
andypost	Hey, the same required for color module, also may need to unpublish release if color isn't going be deprecated in 9.4

5️⃣ Any remote contribution events planned for the rest of the year to help D10?

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Raised by @Kristen Pol (she/her)
dww	Good question! Curious about the answer. :wink:
Kristen Pol (she/her)	With Covid never ending :( I'm more interested in a remote event than in person
mglaman	following. I don’t know of any conferences except NJ and Asheville, then DrupalCon Prague.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I don’t know of online contribution events planned as of now. However, once 7️⃣ is resolved, the bot can start posting patches again and we can swarm around reviewing / testing them, and getting fixes where they don’t work.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	The Drupal 9.4.0 beta is scheduled for week of May 16, which should have almost final definition of Drupal 10's API (other than entire modules deprecated + updated dependency stuff), so starting to make things Drupal 10 compatible would be good :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	(given that this time there will only be 11 months between the 10.0 release is and 9.x going EOL)
mglaman	It’s not an event, but I plan on keeping my Wed 2h dev streams. May pivot from just phpstan-drupal dev to focus on drupal-rector (broken on latest release) and other things, like project bot.
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Thanks. So it sounds like someone could initiate a remote event after the bot has done its work and that maybe helpful. I'll ponder that
mglaman	yeah. some kind of Friday virtual hackathon
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Exactly
Kristen Pol (she/her)	We did one for D9 contrib readiness… maybe in 2020? (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@Kristen Pol (she/her) yeah I would not want to make people do a bunch of busywork that we can automate, so first we would ideally fix up and run the bot :crossed_fingers:
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Sounds reasonable!
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Yeah something along the lines of https://www.hojtsy.hu/drupalcares-9
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	and https://www.hojtsy.hu/blog/2020-nov-23/make-your-drupalorg-project-drupa... etc
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Yes… and like the porting weekend from 2020: http://www.kristen.org/content/preparing-yourself-drupal-9-porting-weekend
ambermatz	What kind of virtual event would be the most helpful here? I’m not up for organizing a full-fledged event, but I would be open to using my paid Zoom account to host informal contribution events once or twice a month, if that would be welcome.
ambermatz	Other ideas might be coming up with monthly contribution themes with a triage and contribution outline that we could promote online and that local meetups could utilize.
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Both of these sound good. IMO the goal would be to have some mentors available to help people contribute. I think the porting weekend and porting day in 2020 worked out well with mentoring around the world but that does take more coordination
Kristen Pol (she/her)	I do really like the idea of one day per month doing this as a regular thing… maybe we could discuss further at some point @ambermatz to see if we could put our heads together for this? No rush or pressure but we may apply positive peer pressure to each other to make something like this a reality
Kristen Pol (she/her)	I had a thought which may or may not be a good idea... I was thinking about creating a d.o community project called "contribution-events" (or something like that) where people can create issues for office hours, porting days, etc and then organizers, mentors, and attendees could get credit for their work.Then trying to promote this to see if some companies would allocate perhaps 2 hours/month to host some sort of contribution "event" on an adhoc or, better yet, regular basis.Thoughts @ambermatz @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) and others?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Sounds like a good concept to me :)
Kristen Pol (she/her)	Cool… I got some positive feedback in the bug smash channel too so maybe I should just try it out… certainly won't hurt
Kristen Pol (she/her)	I created the Contribution Events community project as mentioned above and would welcome feedback on the project page and the issue "components" before I advertise it more widely: https://www.drupal.org/project/contribution_events

6️⃣ Lenient composer facade will not be useful for 9 to 10, composer plugin is planned

mglaman	Composer plugin under sandbox dev, I hacked something together. https://github.com/mglaman/composer-drupal-lenientI should open issues about the next work required.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	The lenient facade helped use projects that were not Drupal 9 compatible on Drupal 9. But it does not work in the 9 to 10 transition because it would need different rules on the facade and could lead to bugs.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	the d.o issue is at #3267143: Add a composer plugin that supports 'composer require-lenient' to support major version transitions
dww	Great work, @mglaman! Thanks for moving this foward.
mglaman	thanks! I’d like to get it shored up a bit more and then move it to a Drupal.org general project with GitLab CI. This was just easier and went way faster than I thought it would

7️⃣ Project update bot needs updating for 9 to 10

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Currrently the underlying code happily produces rector-ed code but with the wrong info file patch :smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I tried running drupalci on my laptop again, but failed even after updating all the components :smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Trying to get help at https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C223PR743/p1652117102170949
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I opened #3279548: Drupal 9 to 10 project update bot code still produces Drupal 9 info files, need fixing so it can post again for this to keep track, and added the codebase reference there :slightly_smiling_face: cc @mglaman
mglaman	thx, I want to track on this. with team sprint ending on Wed… I may not have spare during-day cycles until thursday

8️⃣ Needs signoff on removing support for UC Browser

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	#3251384: Remove support for UC Browser raised by @andy-blum
andy-blum	The “business” justification for this was privacy issues/small marketshare, but it also limits some of the newer features available in front-end technologies.At this point with Claro and Olivero both in and default (:tada: ) it’s not a massive blocking issue, but it would be nice to remove what could become a barrier down the road
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm was the last one who raised some arguments there
andy-blum	On the other hand, this seems pretty clearly like an extenuating circumstance to me based on the IS.#11 sounds like the right approach to me, although I’m not sure how to square it with our current policy.Does that mean someone just needs to write it up?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	For me as a product manager, given that based on the comments UC browser seems to wrap the android webview, it does not seem to be its own thing to define then?
andy-blum	Looks like @catch also had some input in there?
catch	I think we should drop it. We don't have a proper policy for removing/adding browsers from the list yet so it just needs various +1s

9️⃣ Session recordings are now available from DevDays and DrupalCon!

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSsav6YZp6w& is the session by @mglaman and myself from DrupalCon
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnvQX535v-o is the session from DevDays, although with the pace of work on Drupal 10 you would be better served with …
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	the Driesnote recording from DrupalCon Portland: https://dri.es/state-of-drupal-presentation-april-2022