Autoupdates meeting 2019-04-04

:zero: Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself and tell us why you are joining us.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
Surprise! I'm still here :laughing:

heddn   [1 hour ago]
I'm here too

dts   [1 hour ago]
*waves*

xjm   [1 hour ago]
me! half on another meeting

hestenet (he/his/him)   [1 hour ago]
Lurking!

drumm   [1 hour ago]
:wave:

Aaron McHale   [17 minutes ago]
I guess I'm here, although it's 10pm and I'm probably going to go pretty soon, but: Aaron McHale, Website Technical Coordinator (SRS), The University of Edinburgh


:one:  Updates on https://www.drupal.org/project/automatic_updates
heddn
I have the PSA code (with stubbed out JSON feed for testing) built and committed on D8 and D7. This is all under https://www.drupal.org/project/automatic_updates
Posted in #autoupdatesToday at 15:06View message
heddn
I'd like feedback on https://www.drupal.org/project/automatic_updates/issues/3043235 and https://www.drupal.org/project/automatic_updates/issues/3043521
Posted in #autoupdatesToday at 15:06View message
heddn
I also have https://www.drupal.org/project/automatic_updates/issues/3045273 opened but postponed. mlhess is working on the real deal and will get that up post drupalcon.
Posted in #autoupdatesToday at 15:07View message
heddn
my next priorities are the preflight checks needed before doing an in place update. specific checks are being brainstormed :point_up:


two: drupalcon presentation
> I think we should check and make sure that pwolanin, mbaynton, David Strauss have what they need for their session

mbaynton
I believe I'm substantially up to speed at this point through talking with @heddn, in terms of being able to provide status updates. Although actually I was curious if there's anything that's come of the digital signing of things on d.o that @mlhess has referenced in the past few meetings, just so I can stick it in there as a "neat things that have happened recently" if it's come to fruition

mlhess
@pwolanin @mbaynton @dts can you share your slides with @heddn and myself at some point, I want to make sure we are all on the same page with what we are telling the community

drumm   [1 hour ago]
In case anyone is looking for it, I tracked down the link to the session https://events.drupal.org/seattle2019/sessions/drupal-core-auto-update-architecture
DrupalCon
Drupal Core Auto-Update Architecture
This session will be an update to describe intermediate and long-terms strategies and architecture for implementing autoupdates and how far we need to get with the composer initiative to make this possible. This is a follow-up to https://events.drupal.org/nashville2018/sessions/drupal-core-auto-update-architecture In addition it will reflect discussions and planning that happened at the 2018 Decoupled Drupal Days, 2018 Midwest Drupal Summit, and BoFs at Drupal Europe, and will reflect possible progress made leading up to DrupalCon.

heddn [15:11]
:three: Your topics here!

mlhess
I have some code that needs some clean up for signing the tar.gz’s and the .zip files we produce now
Posted in #autoupdatesToday at 15:04View message
mlhess
We need a way for composer to handle the signed files
Posted in #autoupdatesToday at 15:05View message
mlhess
(not for auto updates, but for general use)
Posted in #autoupdatesToday at 15:05View message


dts   [1 hour ago]
Mike and I are interested in looking at A/B switching sans Composer.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
@composer verification of archives, doing that as a plugin for Drupal make sense? Otherwise you're probably talking about trying to determine how best to establish and model trust in the bigger Composer/packagist space which seems likely to be mired in debate forever.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
And yes, the presentation currently proposes an intermediate deliverable where a/b + bootloader is a thing, but Composer support isn't yet

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
you can use symlinks to do a/b above the docroot in d8 pretty easily without any core changes or thinking about assets or anything

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
which somewhat neuters the bootloader as it's just symlinks, but one step at a time

dts   [1 hour ago]
The bootloader can't use symlinks, though, as we may not have access to them.

dts   [1 hour ago]
I don't think that's the tough part of the design, anyway.

heddn   [1 hour ago]
@mbaynton can we do file moves? As long as all files move in a single request, PHP won't know that the files have moved. You'd have to do a sub-request to test things. Does this make sense?

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
@heddn are you thinking of something like docroot/core_new and then mv it?

dts   [1 hour ago]
I'd just copy things around.

xjm   [1 hour ago]
Topics: -Finding an initiative coordinator to help with meetings, communications, etc. and the public roadmap

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
For @heddn's initial "in-place" thing, sure, I'm not entirely clear on how strictly we're adhering to "in-place"

heddn   [1 hour ago]
@xjm added that as a new topic

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
I think that there's benefits to moving to a true a/b + bootloader model in the long run though, so basically my thinking is that the next deliverable after that ought to get us closer to that point by having an a/ and a b/ that's above the docroot

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
re: concerns about symlinks being unavailable @dts, doing it with symlinks is really just choosing to organize your deployed site that way. So if folks that can't do it don't do it, they aren't SOL, just unable to use that iteration of auto updates.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
it could be contrib at that stage

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
really it just allows deferring of the static assets stuff; there's a clear path forward with those using the heuristics-based identification of assets, I just didn't want to commit to implementing it along with all the other stuff I want to see in an interation 2, given that making some symlinks is so easy :slightly_smiling_face:

dts   [1 hour ago]
I see.

dts   [1 hour ago]
I can understand that.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
bite size pieces, at this point.

heddn   [1 hour ago]
do we need to re-evaluate the big long ideas issue summary?

heddn   [1 hour ago]
prioritize and refocus on things we are currently working on vs pie in the sky?

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
@heddn yes. Was going to wait until after fallout of the con

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
At this stage I'm just a guy suggesting going from "do a bunch of hard things all at once" to "do a set of smaller things in a focused sequence" anyway

heddn [15:23]
:four: Finding an initiative coordinator to help with meetings, communications, etc. and the public roadmap.

xjm   [1 hour ago]
So one thing I am hearing a lot from people who are not already involved in the issue is that they have no idea what's happening and I have to keep correcting incorrect assumptions Based on out-of-data stuff. Our roadmap is not up-to-date. mlhess is running initiative meetings reluctantly sometimes, looks like heddn is today (thanks!) But I think it would be good for us to recruit an actual initiative coordinator who can help with communications, meetings, and so on. (Remember this is a support person who helps with collaboration, not a technical lead/architect.)

xjm   [1 hour ago]
https://www.drupal.org/contribute/core/maintainers#initiative
Drupal.org
Drupal core maintainers
This page is a copy of the Drupal core governance overview. The core/MAINTAINERS.txt file lists the current maintainers.
Sep 7th, 2011

xjm   [1 hour ago]
If anyone is interested and in that role, or knows someone who might be, that would be good. We can also ask around at DrupalCon to see if there's anyone who's interested in helping the initiative in that way.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
I could give it a try, in that I'm presently pretty well-versed in what's really going on. Being a support person who helps with collaboration however, probably less so.

mbaynton   [1 hour ago]
Pasting the meeting agenda boilerplate into slack appears to be manageable :man-shrugging:

heddn   [1 hour ago]
The communication part is the hard thing. I'm trying to take on that role for the funded work from the EC. Since it is necessary for success of that effort. The downside is that EC has a very focused set of items and their own agenda. Which is not necessarily what everyone wants.

heddn   [1 hour ago]
Everyone wants the kitchen sink.

xjm   [1 hour ago]
Indeed

heddn   [1 hour ago]
composer updates with zero memory consumption and a/b swapping

xjm   [1 hour ago]
And agreed that the communication is the hard part

mbaynton   [44 minutes ago]
So if the main issue at present is that the roadmap is wrong, I think it's reasonable for me to take on the task of correcting it, but I'd like to wait until a week of con consensus and sprinting happens

mbaynton   [43 minutes ago]
I guess, "likely to be wrong" would be a better description

xjm   [43 minutes ago]
Yeah I think that sounds like a good thing

xjm   [43 minutes ago]
That's one issue though -- another is that people don't know how they can get involved, what progress is being made, etc.

xjm   [42 minutes ago]
People think nothing is happening

heddn   [42 minutes ago]
there isn't a lot of low hanging fruit here

xjm   [42 minutes ago]
So we need someone (or multiple people) who can help with the "reporting out" and such

heddn   [42 minutes ago]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A4GQqavhCUjqFsb1Ffmhgxh-i-eU3tYI6Th6Gbzsa-c/edit#gid=54229263 is the roadmap for funded work

xjm   [42 minutes ago]
Right, I'm just relaying what the product managers have been saying to me

xjm   [42 minutes ago]
I know; I helped write it :slightly_smiling_face:

xjm   [42 minutes ago]
And keep mentioning that

xjm   [41 minutes ago]
but it's not mmentioned on the public roadmap

heddn   [41 minutes ago]
and we're on target

heddn   [41 minutes ago]
I think we need 2 roadmaps. One for EC funded stuffs and a second for all the rest of the non-funded work.

mbaynton   [40 minutes ago]
@heddn I don't; you're going to finish your stuff first so just prepend it to the roadmap :wink:

xjm   [40 minutes ago]
The problem is that a lot of people don't even know that the EU work is happening, they don't know what happens next after the EU kick off is done, they see no updates on the issue and assume that no work is being done when work definitely is being done, and then I have to have huge circular Arguments with all of my coworkers who want to put people on the composer initiative to help with auto-updates when we (this team) know there's a lot more than that to do (and blocking on the composer initiative isn't helpful at this point) (edited)

xjm   [39 minutes ago]
So it is good to have someone who is not one of the people doing the work to promote and explain the work that's being done, show progress, present information and updates and so forth.

mbaynton   [39 minutes ago]
So, I'm not especially well versed in how things get communicated amongst Drupal leadership, but I do know that there's this page right here that kinda says nothing https://www.drupal.org/about/strategic-initiatives/automatic-updates. Would it be materially helpful to just put current information here?
Drupal.org
Automatic Updates Initiative
Jun 2nd, 2018

heddn   [38 minutes ago]
I can write-up in broad strokes what is being funded by EC. That can go into the ideas issue now. No need to wait on drupalcon. the scope and timeline won't change

mlhess   [38 minutes ago]
HUGE +1 to this

heddn   [38 minutes ago]
I've been needing to do that anyway. So I'll just do it.

xjm   [38 minutes ago]
@mbaynton Yep, that's one of the many things an initiative coordinator would help with

xjm   [36 minutes ago]
And initiative coordinator would also do things like summarize the outcomes of our meetings, report progress on issues, etc.

mbaynton   [35 minutes ago]
@xjm are there examples of initiatives that are "doing it right"?

xjm   [35 minutes ago]
@mbaynton the Media initiative is probably a good example

xjm   [34 minutes ago]
Their roadmap is continuously updated

mbaynton   [34 minutes ago]
I'm still not sure if I'm a good choice though in that my primary interest is doing, not initiativing, and you've mentioned that there's benefit to the coordinator being someone else.

heddn   [33 minutes ago]
in migrate we used to give updates every few months when things happened. with more of that stable, we don't update the status as frequently.

xjm   [33 minutes ago]
Yeah. It could be beneficial to have two people in the role as well. Especially someone like you ramping up someone else who is more excited and passionate about the communication and organization part of it :slightly_smiling_face:

xjm   [31 minutes ago]
@mbaynton Gábor is the "initiative coordinator coordinator"; maybe you could chat with him and see if you might be up to be at least an "interim coordinator"?

xjm   [30 minutes ago]
With the goal of recruiting someone new who is passionate about that kind of work

mbaynton   [26 minutes ago]
I am amused that we have a coordinator of coordinators, although it's clearly a good thing. I'll keep an eye out for him next week.

xjm   [23 minutes ago]
Hehe well it's tongue-in-cheek :slightly_smiling_face:

xjm   [23 minutes ago]
I'll mention it to him too, thanks!

heddn   [18 minutes ago]
https://www.drupal.org/project/ideas/issues/2940731#in-progress is now added and updated
Drupal.org
Automatic Updates initiative
Initiative meeting agendas and minutes Meetings are held on the first Thursday of the month at 1:00 PM EST in the #autoupdates channel of the Drupal community Slack. Minutes from past meetings and agendas for upcoming meetings can be found in the following queue: https://www.drupal.org/project/issues/automatic_updates?status=All Initiative overview TLDR;
Jan 30th, 2018

xjm   [13 minutes ago]
@heddn Yay thank you!