a screenshot of this icon in context

For the last week, I thought this broken link icon meant that there was something broken about each of these parts of my View. Especially since one of the first things they happened in the process of making a View, is that Views was giving me errors about not having fields configured when I needed them. I figured this ion was continuing to flag broken things for me to fix. (And I have expert-level experience with D6 Views).

It wasn't until tonight that I finally realized that this icon means overridden, not broken.

Perhaps there's a better icon to use that will universally mean overridden, not broken. I get that a broken link should do this... but I think the broken idea is misleading.

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Comments

jensimmons’s picture

*first things that happens when making a View...
(ugh, I wish we could edit our original posts).

kmajzlik’s picture

subscribing

dawehner’s picture

It's indeed kind of special.

One problem is that it's the only icon visual icon in the interface. So it really shines out.

Michelle’s picture

I haven't used the new UI, yet, so am coming at this only having seen the discussion on IRC. First thing that came to mind for me for "overridden" is the original icon in a light grey with a very slightly different icon super-imposed on top. The idea is to visually show that something is "on top of" the original way and doing it differently.

I'm no UX expert... Just a user. :)

Michelle

Noyz’s picture

It's "unlinked" from the master. I can't think of a better icon. The idea comes from desktop applications where you can link/unlink things like layers, styles, etc. While I don't disagree that it needs to be discovered a bit, it's better than a master display with override buttons. I think we should wait to hear if this issue becomes a pattern before we look for a fix - unless of course someone can think of a better icon.

merlinofchaos’s picture

While other people haven't filed issues, I have heard this complain from at least 2 other sources.

jensimmons’s picture

I think it's a great idea to have an icon. And it's in a good place. I just think the connection between broken link / unlinked and what it means (unlinked/overriden) is not obvious. It makes sense if you already know the intention and think about it intellectually. But great UI isn't intellectual. It's instinctual. And I don't think people's instincts are triggered in an obvious-enough way here. That's what I meant.

When I have more time and can clear my head to explore this, I'll see if I can suggest something better. Meanwhile maybe someone else has some images to show. Again, it's not a thing to think about linguistically, it's a thing to explore visually. Talking about this in words alone doesn't really work.

Noyz’s picture

@jensimmons I don't disagree with any of that. However I'm doubtful that such an interaction can be instinctual, but completely willing to be be proven wrong.

In coming up with these designs, I didn't think people would instinctually get this concept, so I tried drawing from applications that had similar patterns. i.e., Photoshops layer linking, Fireworks master pages, etc. The trouble here is that these applications work in reverse; layers are unlinked until they're linked. Keynote or PPT is a closer pattern (master applies to all newly created slides), but I'd be surprised if people called the pattern instinctual.

Often UI's have to pick the lessor of many evils - hence the argument to always design towards the 80% and not the 20%. Perhaps the icons are demanding too much attention and forcing people to consider the 20% when they don't have to. Maybe it would be better to have a softer indicator (go back to to just italics). The downside of doing so is that it could cause some confusion when the unlinked data doesn't change - but maybe that's the 20%. Said differently, which is worse....

1. people don't know what the icon is, and jump to their own conclusions like "the bucket is broken"
2. people don't understand why a bucket is rendered in italics (but don't think it's "broken"), and why some data isn't updating ( they change the master or another display), and overridden displays aren't updating)

Perhaps #1 is worse and we should move to #2. Dunno yet. I would like hear Jens ideas (or others) on how to make this instinctual, and I'd like to hear of more users having this issue. Two users tells me there's a potential problem, but doesn't rule out that this issue is an anomaly yet.

indigoblue’s picture

Its a nice icon but IMHO the icon immediately suggests "broken" ( in the sense of not working ), that was my first reaction when I saw it. I think it is counter-intuitive and likely to cause a great deal of unnecessary concern, The meaning of such a key UI indicator - needs to be clear to ALL users or it is not worth having.

Noyz’s picture

sounds like #8 point 2 is potentially a good idea then.

indigoblue’s picture

FileSize
536 bytes

I personally like the concept of an icon indicator but think that the concept of "linking" is problematic and it might be easier to consider the concept of "overriding", ie something on top of another. Maybe looking for some icon ideas based on this concept might be a way forward? Looking at the photoshop interface I see one that might provide some inspiration and I have attached it.

indigoblue’s picture

FileSize
741 bytes

or these ...

Noyz’s picture

The second is universal to layers and/or color swatch swapping - so they don't work. The first is the stronger icon, but nobody will know what it means. At present, I still think just italics is better. Here's why...

1. If you give people an icon they don't understand, they try to apply meaning to it. That's what's happening with the unlink icon. People don't get it, so they think "broke"

2. If there is no icon, but only italics, people will be less likely to stop in their tracks and try to apply meaning.

That said, I still like an icon too - hence why I designed it that way. But Im more and more convinced that it's not possible to solve the problem through an icon. if we can, awesome. But doubtful.

longwave’s picture

Agreed that the icon is confusing. Having said that, the only suitable thing I can find in an image search for "override icon" is http://support.f5.com/content/dam/f5/kb/global/manuals/man-0252-03/49057... so perhaps some variant on that? Should there be a related icon for "not overridden" as well to reduce initial confusion? If so, how about a "family" style icon, indicating a parent/child relationship, with only the child highlighted when overridden?

indigoblue’s picture

Re #13: I am not sure that the unlink icon fails because people don't recognise it - on the contrary I think it confuses people because people recognise it as a "broken" indicator. An "unknown" icon would not suffer this problem, i think there have been some promising suggestions - hopefully something similar might work.

Noyz’s picture

#15.

I am not sure that the unlink icon fails because people don't recognise it - on the contrary I think it confuses people because people recognise it as a "broken" indicator

That's precisely what I was saying... If people don't understand an icon, they try to apply meaning. An "unknown icon" does not have this problem true, but an icon that's not recognizable ("unknown"), does not fix the problem. It only forces people to ask the question... "what does that mean?"

Between an unknown icon, or italicized text, I'd go with italicized text. Here's why...

1. An icon that's not readily understood will A) draw attention B) lead people TRY to map their own meaning, e.g., "there's a color swatch icon next to this field, why would I need to change colors"?

2. Both italicized text and unknown icon will have people asking "why, what does mean." However, A) it's possible italics will go unnoticed, B) italics will not lead the user to try them to map an incorrect meaning.

Again, still open to the right icon, but not one that doesn't have meaning, nor one that leads people incorrectly.

dawehner’s picture

Status: Active » Needs review
FileSize
1.55 KB

Here is a first patch, probably a horrible one from css style perspective so this probably needs work
but let's do something here and not only talk.

jessebeach’s picture

#17 Looks great.

dawehner’s picture

Status: Needs review » Active

Thanks! Commited

Let's keep this open to find a proper icon, even if its hard.

alyssum’s picture

I had the exact same misunderstanding as the original poster. It didn't help that my views from v2 were actually misbehaving too. I actually would prefer to have a textual style rather than an icon. The icon is causing spacing issues and making some of my items only partially viewable. An icon also draws a lot of attention to a relatively minor function. I prefer the patch by dereine over finding another icon.

dawehner’s picture

Category: bug » task

Let's call it a task to find a better icon.