Some suggested standard topics:
:one: Who is here today?
:two: Suggested topics
:three: Approve last meeting notes
:four: Open issues / issues needing attention
:four: :one: Issue #xxxxxx raised
:four: :two: Issue #xxxxxx closed

Google calendag link available: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/u/0?cid=OTY4MGQ5ZWJhOGFlZjNjOGQ5NzQ...

Meeting template

Hello all, it’s time for the fortnightly project update working group meeting.
This meeting:
➤ Is for anyone interested in the Drupal project update working group.
➤ Is held on the #project-update-working-group channel in Drupal Slack (see www.drupal.org/slack for information).
➤ Usually happens fortnightly. Alternating between Wednesday 2100 UTC and Tuesday 0900 UTC.
➤ The meeting open for 24 hours to allow for all time zones.
➤ Discussion is done in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously.
➤ Has a public agenda anyone can add to by adding a comment to the meeting issue.
➤ A transcript will be made using drupal-meeting-parser and posted to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a :bust_in_silhouette: emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a :no_entry_sign: emoji.
➤ The transcript will include comments made during the 24 hours of the meeting. However, comments made after the 24 hours may not be in transcript.

Current ping list: @bbrala

Comments

bbrala created an issue. See original summary.

bbrala’s picture

bbrala
Location Netherlands
commented

Suggested topics:
Finalize workflow for working group - https://www.drupal.org/project/puwg/issues/3448447

I think we should start there, this is needed before we even start to think about role's and permissions we might need.

bbrala’s picture

bbrala
Location Netherlands
commented
Component: Other » Meeting
kristen pol’s picture

kristen pol
she/her
Primary language English
Location Santa Cruz, CA, USA
commented

We can also try to decide on any standard agenda items for each meeting.

generalredneck’s picture

generalredneck
him/his
Primary language English
Location Texas, USA 🇺🇸
commented
Issue summary: View changes

Fixing a point

bbrala credited Darren.

bbrala credited heddn.

bbrala credited japerry.

bbrala credited kim.pepper.

bbrala credited larowlan.

bbrala credited markie.

bbrala credited MegaChriz.

bbrala credited naveenvalecha.

bbrala credited pcambra.

bbrala credited tekNorah.

bbrala credited VladimirAus.

bbrala’s picture

bbrala
Location Netherlands
commented

Hello all, it’s time for the first fortnightly project update working group meeting.This meeting:➤ Is for anyone interested in the Drupal project update working group.➤ Is held on the #project-update-working-group channel in Drupal Slack (see www.drupal.org/slack for information).➤ Usually happens fortnightly. Alternating between Wednesday 2100 UTC and Tuesday 0900 UTC.➤ The meeting open for 24 hours to allow for all time zones.➤ Discussion is done in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously.➤ Has a public agenda anyone by adding a comment to the meeting issue.➤ A transcript will be made using drupal-meeting-parser and posted to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a 👤 emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a 🚫 emoji.➤ The transcript will include comments made during the 24 hours of the meeting. However, comments made after the 24 hours may not be in transcript.Current ping list: @Björn Brala (bbrala)

generalredneck quick heads up. the point Has a public agenda anyone by adding a comment to the meeting issue.Probably should be "Has a public agenda anyone can add to by adding a comment to the meeting issue
Björn Brala (bbrala) Ah good one, there is an issue in de issue queue, could you fixup the IS there? After this meeting we make a child issue for the next meeting with the same IS pretty much 🙂.
generalredneck Done

1️⃣ Who is here today?

MegaChriz Youri, from the Netherlands 🙂
Björn Brala (bbrala) Björn from SWIS, Netherlands ^^
Timo Huisman Timo, also from SWIS and the Netherlands
tekNorah tekNorah Chicago, IL, US
pcambra :wave::skin-tone-3: Pedro, Spain
larowlan Lurking
naveenvalecha naveenvalecha
Darren Joining from Lakeland, Florida.
VladimirAus Vladimir :wave:
generalredneck Allan (GR) from Dallas, TX, US (edited)
Kristen Pol (she/her) Kristen, California :wave:
heddn Lucas, Nicaragua
kimb0 Kim, Aus :wave::skin-tone-2:
markie ugh.. sorry I am so late..
Björn Brala (bbrala) Hehe didn't do meeting parser yet ;)
japerry also a bit late, was sick yesterday

2️⃣ Suggested topics (edited) 

tekNorah Provisional member guidebook/next steps? (edited)
tekNorah Charter updates
Björn Brala (bbrala) Can you elaborate on this?
tekNorah I noticed that the Charter mentioned that meeting info/cadence would be added, once established. There may be other updates too.
Kristen Pol (she/her) Fyi, I checked the items that had followup ^

3️⃣  Decide standard agenda agenda items for each meeting (by @Kristen Pol (she/her))

Björn Brala (bbrala) Suggestion from the meeting issue:Open issues / issues needing attention
Björn Brala (bbrala) Also think it could be good to know what high usage modules are not ready and might need help. This kinda depends on the process though, and how proactive we want to be to find modules to help out with
pcambra we might be able to automate this? https://www.drupal.org/drupalorg/docs/apis/update-status-xml
Björn Brala (bbrala) We also have this dashboard that is fed by project update bot data and maintained by @Gábor Hojtsy (he/him) - https://dev.acquia.com/drupal11/deprecation_status/projects
pcambra There you go, we should use that if we want to be proactive 🙂
Kristen Pol (she/her) there are the generic ones of course:1️⃣ Who is here today? (though this is sometimes 0️⃣ )2️⃣ Suggested topicsand I would add some like:3️⃣ Celebrations :tada: (this is used in a couple meetings like d11readiness)4️⃣ Current stats and metrics5️⃣ Status of projects you are working on
Kristen Pol (she/her) Maybe we have a standard item for now which is like:6️⃣ Working group process feedback
Kristen Pol (she/her) or some place for people to add what is working and what isn't working so we can tune
Kristen Pol (she/her) and there is typically a final number at the end of each meeting like:9️⃣ Thanks all for coming! Please continue to discuss in the threads above. The meeting is officially open for 24 hours to allow for asynchronous collaboration.
Björn Brala (bbrala) I like the feedback topic. That's great
Björn Brala (bbrala) 9 is indeed always a thing, was thinking to wait for that later this evening (cet), to keep new topics openable for other timezones
Kristen Pol (she/her) I like doing the that one proactively or I forget :wink:
Björn Brala (bbrala) Hehe, yeah, i understand. :0
Björn Brala (bbrala) i'll add something about new threads.

4️⃣ Finalize workflow for working group

Björn Brala (bbrala) Issue: #3448447: Finalize workflow for working group
Björn Brala (bbrala) Our charter (which contains some process steps also): https://git.drupalcode.org/project/governance/-/blob/main/charters/proje...
MegaChriz I see we need to make the process clear. Probably the first step is decide which projects would qualify to be passed to PUWG?
Björn Brala (bbrala) From what i understand from the charter basically the puwg is an alternative to begoming a maintainer for a module. So there has been no contact with the module developer, issue is opened and tested. Seems first steps are quite clear at that. (edited)
MegaChriz So then it is a matter of letting people know that they can push projects to the PUWG?
Björn Brala (bbrala) I think this is a big part yes
generalredneck Will we be "looking" for projects as well or do we need to "wait" for people to escalate them. I'm sure that we as community members may be able to escalate them too but we probably should talk about the nuance of that case.
generalredneck example, the person who reports it to the PUWG can't be the person representing the PUWG when hitting up the contact form, so that there are at least 2 people involved and not just a single driver?
generalredneck Otherwise I think the process is pretty clear and is very similar to what is already in place by the documentation around offering to become a maintainer/co-maintainer. We just play the role of co-maintainer and Project Ownership.
Björn Brala (bbrala) I would think we should help people find us, this could also mean proactively messaging in issues what is possible.
Kristen Pol (she/her) Agreed that we shouldn't be the ones "driving" the push to the working group and it would follow the existing co-maintainer request workflow but we should have a page that explains the process (and links off to the existing documentation) so it's clear
heddn explain the process and how this is different then anything else leveraged in the past.

5️⃣ Provisional member guidebook / next steps?

Björn Brala (bbrala) Raised by @tekNorah.
tekNorah As a provisional member, i am wondering what the team had in mind as ways we could help?
Björn Brala (bbrala) You can pretty much do anything we need do currently in regards to setting up this group. Later when we start working on modules pre-work can be done by proviional members i think, i just dont think we can actually have you make a temporarily maintainer for a module.
tekNorah Ok, and any ideas on path to being able to become a temporary maintainer?
MegaChriz Would it be an issue if you would just be listed as a "regular" maintainer on a project?Downsides probably are:PUWG-members would keep access to the projects they updated to Drupal 11;PUWG-members may get contacted to fix other issues in the module (not related to D11 upgrade), including security issues.But would these downsides be big enough to try to implement an other process here?
tekNorah I'm just saying that provisional implies access with guidance
generalredneck I wouild think that maybe the provisional member guidebook would explain some of the subtleties about the duties, and possiblly any moral/sticky points we hit as we go along.
generalredneck While the Duties/Process says what must and must not be done, I'm sure there are going to be questions when the process is actually followed. Example, what happens when someone can't be contacted for any number of reasons? What can we do in certain circumstances.Example the process says Take into consideration recent activity from the maintainer in the project.How do we do that? What do we need to consider? what are we looking for?
generalredneck Having canned messages and what not as a part of that guidebook would be nice as well for when we do contact people using their contact form.
generalredneck Crafting :point_up: may be a whole task in itself so that we can let the maintainer know what workflows THEY can employ, as well as explaining who we are and what we are and are not doing, and preparing for the eventuality of issues like hostility, escalation, and responses with personal issues. How we can turn it around to "We can help" versus "We are butting in"
generalredneck Other things may be What kind of code changes should/can we make, and do we employ an internal review process?
generalredneck What level of testing should we be beholden to prior to making a release? I Really think step 6 and 7 in the process is ripe for guidance even though the framework is clearly laid out.
generalredneck Next question, Why are we considering limiting the "Guide book" to just provisional members? Given we have a plethera of Full members, I feel that documenting what full members can/should do and helping guide them along may be something, unless I"m just totally offbase and missing the point of the documentation.
generalredneck Lastly if we are talking about the Provisional Role, and guidance, I think it would be helpful to know "When" you need to ask for help. Example:The "Duties / Process" kind of indicate what role can carry out the item. There is some of that when talking about "members of the community" and "maintainer" and "Project Update Working Group", but we don't say anything between provisional and full members.And to me it's not the clearest based on the blurb in "membership" which a provisional needs help doing or just CANT do.
tekNorah As a provisional member, it we my understanding that the process section under the charter is the existing full member "guidebook". So, I was asking on this thread for a separate provisional member guidebook so it is clear to to us what level of involvement is expected and provide a clear path to full membership.
tekNorah Based on @generalredneck responses here, it sounds like the existing process/workflow for full Members also needs some ❤️
tekNorah Personally, I think a high level workflow is fine on the charter. But, guide books should probably exist as Docs on d.o, right?
Björn Brala (bbrala) Developing something like this is normally done in a public google doc so we can collaborate easily. 🙂 So an issue with an link to a google doc to start writing this up would be a good start ^^
tekNorah Then those docs can be used as resources we can use when discussing things with existing maintainers or others that have concerns?
tekNorah I am happy to create an issue and start a Google doc. Is there a special Google Drive I should drop it in?
generalredneck you are so damn organized tekNorah lol
generalredneck Thank you
tekNorah I am a technical project manager and business process improvement specialist :wink:
Kristen Pol (she/her) Thanks for leading the effort here... until there is a doc with some text then I'm unclear how I can contribute to this "policy" :wink:
tekNorah Created #3454022: Create PUWG Guidebook(s) and [WIP] PUWG Guidebook Doc

6️⃣ Charter updates

Björn Brala (bbrala) Raised by @tekNorah
Björn Brala (bbrala) What discussion are you looking for here?
Björn Brala (bbrala) I noticed that the Charter mentioned that meeting info/cadence would be added, once established. There may be other updates too.
Björn Brala (bbrala) Perhaps you could make an issue if we need changes?
tekNorah #3453891: Update Charter: meeting schedule
tekNorah Added as checklist item to: #3448446: [META] Project update working group startup
tekNorah Since the charter is under the governance project at: https://git.drupalcode.org/project/governance/-/blob/main/charters/proje... I move this issue to that project and create a fork on the issue there? (edited)
Björn Brala (bbrala) Child issue perhaps?
generalredneck Do we want to keep clarifications, questions, and issues about the charter to those issues, or are we free to talk about them here?
generalredneck We have a Duties/Process section AND a Process section  in the charter. We should better clarify what each section is there for.
tekNorah I think it's fine to chat here and reinforce on the issues as comments.
tekNorah I was equally confused by there being both a duties/process section and a process section.
tekNorah I wonder if simply renaming each would help?
generalredneck probably. Though I'm not sure what that would be. LIke the duties/process is less "duties" and more "workflow"
tekNorah :plus_one:  "workflow"
generalredneck the second process needs more before I can "name" it
tekNorah Earlier, I created: #3453891: Update Charter: meeting schedule
tekNorah Where I added a new meeting section: https://git.drupalcode.org/issue/governance-3453904/-/compare/main...main
tekNorah Personally, I don't think the process section is very valuable and feels like a remnant of the original doc
generalredneck Yeah I get "Placeholder" vibe for sure
tekNorah I would like to create a separate set of issues on the PUWG and Governance projects for refining the "process" sections.
Björn Brala (bbrala) I would advise to start developing those in PUWG queue and then when we have some sort of concensus on what we need make the issue in governace for wider feedback.
Kristen Pol (she/her) @tekNorah not sure what there is no coding standard meeting means in the meetings text
Björn Brala (bbrala) Hmm, that was my early proposal to cross the Coding Standards meetings :sweat_smile:
tekNorah It came from the meeting intro in this channel today.  Is this no longer accurate?
Björn Brala (bbrala) It is, but not relevant. Was relevant to decide on a schedule :) but that has been set
tekNorah Created: #3454011: Update Charter: refine process sections (edited)
tekNorah Created: #3454013: Update PUWG Charter: refine process sections (edited)
tekNorah Both of these issue pairs have MRs and are ready for review:#3454011: Update Charter: refine process sections | #3454013: Update PUWG Charter: refine process sections#3453891: Update Charter: meeting schedule | #3453904: Update PUWG Charter: meeting schedule
heddn Direct link to the charter Process (edited)
tekNorah actually, the charter is here: https://git.drupalcode.org/project/governance/-/blob/main/charters/proje...
tekNorah The process section was pulled out of the charter and copied to the WIP Guidebook: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NqMalFivJ63SqiVO6ogbOmeY7IQSJfmQV5ft...
heddn updated. thxs

7️⃣ Suggestions when we should be ready to work on modules

MegaChriz I read in some of the Slack channels here that October 2024 was suggested.
Björn Brala (bbrala) In another channel @mglaman suggested we should probably start with that after 11 is out for a little while, so osmething lik e24
Björn Brala (bbrala) hehe, yes 🙂
Björn Brala (bbrala) But couldn't find the thread
MegaChriz https://drupal.slack.com/archives/C03L6441E1W/p1717440655641089?thread_t...
Kristen Pol (she/her) so we have a few months to get organized and then get the word out to the right people/channels so they can start requesting help when the time is right
japerry The only reservation I have on timeline is if there are any popular modules (top 150 or so) that aren't getting responses. The regular co-maintainer process could be used, but I'd rather we steer contributors here, before D11 comes out, on those modules because of security implications of giving maintainer access of popular modules
Björn Brala (bbrala) Good point, although most of top 200 is pretty well maintained AFAIK. From what I remember from d10 there were a few slow ones, but m9stly because of complexity.

8️⃣ Thanks all for coming! Please continue to discuss in the threads above. The meeting is officially open for 24 hours to allow for asynchronous collaboration. Feel free to open new threads if needed following the numbering.

Participants:

generalredneck, bbrala, MegaChriz, Timo Huisman, tekNorah, pcambra, larowlan, naveenvalecha, Darren, VladimirAus, Kristen Pol, heddn, kim.pepper, markie, japerry

bbrala’s picture

bbrala
Location Netherlands
commented
Status: Active » Needs review

bbrala credited timohuisman.

bbrala’s picture

bbrala
Location Netherlands
commented

Missing a credit, spacing in username.