Should this project be deprecated in favour of http://drupal.org/project/no/? They seem to be quite up to date.

Comments

hansfn’s picture

What a mess.

If you look at http://drupal.org/project/no/ you'll notice that the release is 5.x-1.4-nb where nb stands for Norwegian Bokmål. So they got everything right, except the URL which should have been http://drupal.org/project/nb/ ...

A little background: Norway has two written languages "Norwegian Bokmål" - nb - and "Norwegian Nynorsk" - nn. So the correct project URLs should be http://drupal.org/project/nb and http://drupal.org/project/nn The language code "no" should not be used any more. (Most software sets no as an alias for nb since that is the dominant language.)

Anyway, I suggest moving http://drupal.org/project/no/ to http://drupal.org/project/nb and merging the files from here into that project which seems to be working on Drupal 5.x (while this project has translated 4.7.X).

Hope I made myself clear. Looking forward for better Norwegian Bokmål support in Drupal 4.7 and 5.

Regards, Hans

hansfn’s picture

Even more mess.

I just noticed that Norwegian Nynorsk exists but is located at http://drupal.org/project/nno in stead of http://drupal.org/project/nn which is better/more correct since the other translation projects seem to be using the two-letter (ISO 639-1) language code ...

Hans

hansfn’s picture

I was reading some more at http://drupal.org/project/no/

Roadmap

Standardization of module names and commonly used terms are major priority in versions 5.x-1.4-nb and above Work on the Nynorsk version (no 5.x.1.0-nno) is planned.

Instructions

To configure your Drupal site using the 'no' iso-639 language code, go to /admin/settings/locale/language/add then choose Norwegian (Norsk) from the drop downlist.This is the translation file/s if you want to use iso-639 language code no which Drupal defaults to.

My remarks:
1) It seems they are planning to host a Nynorsk translation too. Maybe, just maybe, it make sense to have http://drupal.org/project/no/ as common location for Bokmål and Nynorsk.
2) They use "nb" and then "nno" is language codes - this is inconsistent. "nno" should be "nn". (Starting to repeat myself".)
3) Does really Drupal default to "no" as the language code? That must be changed - a translation is either "nb" or "nn".

I have contacted JohnNoc so he can comment here too.

Hans

JohnFilipstad’s picture

Hi.

I received an email a couple of hours ago regarding this issue. Unfortunately, there hasn't been any discussions betweeen the maintainers of the no, nno, and nb projects.

IMPORTANT! This comment is for discussion purposes and is NOT meant to give negative feedbacks to existing projects.

Now that was stated....

When the norwegian translations for Drupal 5 were almost ready, the need for the norwegian translation (no) project came about due to following reasons:

  • Drupal defaults to language code "no".
    • This happens when a user adds the norwegian language via the drop-down list. To achieve an nb/nn (ISO 639-1), or nob/nno (ISO 639-2), the user must add a custom language and specify his/her preferred iso-code 639 code list.
  • A need for a norwegian translation project with much activity and useful results. There wasn't much activity with the existing nb and nno projects.
    • There has never been a 100% release for the nb and nno, not even a partial stable release. The latest activity is only a dev version for Drupal 4.6.x (This is the only reason Drupal Norge gave to drupal.org when we applied for a CVS account and to come up with the "no" project)
  • A centralized norwegian website for all norwegian-related projects is conceptualized and partnered with the project.
    • At time of conception, the norwegian project needed a home that is centralized, where there will be case follow-ups, issue reporting, etc. The Drupal norwegian community needed a website not only used as a forum but a website that will organize the translation project/s as well as other future norwegian-related projects, which Drupal Norge is achieving.
  • And most importantly, the "no" language code is a general and universal code for Norwegian.

It seems they are planning to host a Nynorsk translation too. Maybe, just maybe, it make sense to have http://drupal.org/project/no/ as common location for Bokmål and Nynorsk.

The "no" language code is a code for the norwegian language. To accomodate the possibility of releasing numerous language packs, Drupal Norge will be promoting translations of different norwegian language standards such as the two official standards (Bokmål and Nynorsk) as well as the possibility of coming up with a Sami version. To accomodate all these, we have to use the more complete iso 639-2 code list. The next and hopefully final release of the Bokmål version for 5.x is planned to have an nob suffix (5.x-2.0-nob) for consistency purposes. At the end of it all, it is still up to a site's administrator which language code he/she wants to use in his/her site, no/nob/nb for bokmål or nno/nn for nynorsk The "no" project is meant to be a centralized and organized project for version possibilities partnered with the Drupal Norge website which will be the central point for all norwegian-based projects.

I personally believe that there is no need to have different projects for all language codes. We will be ending up with something like 500 languages if everyone with a language code specified becomes active. In regards to the norwegian translations, a general project where we have a centralized location is very much needed so results can be achieved.

I am very much willing to sort things up regarding this matter to have unified translation projects. I do not agree with you in giving up the "no" project in favor of the nb project due to my reasons above. We need to unite our working efforts and Drupal Norge infrastructure is providing that for us.

Does really Drupal default to "no" as the language code? That must be changed - a translation is either "nb" or "nn".

I do not agree. "no" is the general iso code for the norwegian language, and I think its just about right that Drupal defaults to this. If an administrator want to be very specific, he/she has a choice in defining a custom language

And to conclude, correct me if I'm wrong, projects here in drupal.org is never deleted. It just dies. Whenever a project has no activity, it's there until the Drupal version it supports isn't there anymore. It may be the nb project, the nno project or the no project. The project names are decisions of the maintainers of these projects, and its up to you, if you want to use nb over than no for bokmål on your own site, or use nn on your site even if you downloaded it from the nno project.

JohnFilipstad’s picture

Just to clear my last sentence above...

When you install a language pack, it's up to you, the administrator of your own site which iso code (and from which list) you want to use. Do you have a Drupal 4.6.x site, download the language version that is meant for 4.6.x, and even if you downloaded it from the nb project, you can use no, nob, or nb as the iso code because whichever of the 3 codes you use, they're all correct ISO 639 codes for bokmål.

If you don't want mess, then follow the activity of the project you prefer. The idea is not different when you want to achieve a weblinks feature on your Drupal site, you either use Links Package, CCK, Janode or the Weblinks module, it's up to you :-)

hansfn’s picture

Thx for the comments, John.

First of all: John, I contacted you to start discussions between the maintainers of no, nno, and nb projects. This is a bug in the nb project so the only one not invited/aware of this discussion is the nno project owner. John, can you invite him? I didn't intend to make any conclusions without all parties being heard.

Secondly: The URL/project name doesn't really matter and I said maybe it make sense to have http://drupal.org/project/no/ as common location for Bokmål and Nynorsk. in my last (of three) comment. I just want, for the benefit of the Norwegian Drupal users, that we coordinate our translation efforts.

Thridly: I'm a little disappointed that you think it's fine that Drupal only has "no" (as default Norwegian language code) and not "nb" and "nn" instead. If you look around, you'll find that many projects (including the "GNU C Library") has gotten this right - why shouldn't Drupal also do the right thing (TM).

In addition you wrote:

no, nob, or nb as the iso code because whichever of the 3 codes you use, they're all correct ISO 639 codes for bokmål.

This is plainly wrong. "no" is unspecified Norwegian, but has been used in some applications as an alias for "nb" (for historical reasons). Written Norwegian is either Bokmål or Nynorsk - there is no Norwegian "base" language. I am not sure how to convince you that the language "no" doesn't exist, but maybe this reference can help http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg03307.html

I'm perfectly capable of setting the correct language code myself (and your translation is good), I'm just sad the Drupal doesn't support Norwegian correctly.

JohnFilipstad’s picture

Assigned: Unassigned » JohnFilipstad
Status: Active » Postponed

Thanks for your statement that my translation of the Drupal 5.x is good. For a person who has lived in Norway for 7 years, that's a VERY BIG compliment!

Also, I do not need to invite the maintainer of the nno project to this discussion because he (hba) is the one who started this discussion. Look above :-)

Anyway, oddly enough, we are actually on the same boat. There's nothing more I want than to achieve than the coordination of our efforts. Not only the translation efforts but all norwegian-related Drupal projects. That is why Drupal Norge is born, to have a centralized location for all our efforts so everyrone knows what's going on. Then after we have discussed things locally, we can make organized commits and releases. With this, we will be more effective.

Believe me, it will be more comfortable for me to discuss here (in english) and do all things here rather than there, but for the norwegian community not to be scattered, we need to gather and unite in a local central point. So to achieve our goal of centralizing things, we can continue the discussion there. It will also be easier for most norwegian users commenting on this issue in the native language. I am e-mailing all maintainers so we can initiate the journey to a unified community :-)

I am changing the status to this issue to "postponed" until we decide locally what has to be done. Then we can change the status in the near future as a finalization.

One last thing, before we move there, I strongly agree with you that "no" is undefined norwegian. That is why I named the norwegian translation project (no) so there's room for expansion and a unified translation effort.

See you at the forums at http://www.drupalnorge.no/forum/utvikling/sprakfiler. I will be starting a thread there right after I press on "Submit" here ;-9 I also invite all interested norwegian users to be active in achieving a unified norwegian community!

hba’s picture

The reason that I started this thread is that I looked for the Norwegian Bokmål translation, and found the nb project (while the no project seemed to be better maintained). Confusing. IMHO we should decide on only two projects, (either nn+nb or nno+nob) and let the other remaining projects (no/nb/nn/nob/nno) present a short explanation and just forward to the correct ones. The selected projects names (say nn+nb) should map directly to the cvs tree (translations/nn and ../nb).

I agree with hansfn:
Thridly: I'm a little disappointed that you think it's fine that Drupal only has "no" (as default Norwegian language code) and not "nb" and "nn" instead. If you look around, you'll find that many projects (including the "GNU C Library") has gotten this right - why shouldn't Drupal also do the right thing (TM).

We should provide a default and out-of-the-box way of providing Bokmål and Nynorsk. Get rid of the redundant efforts. Let there be a standard way within Drupal to select either Bokmål or Nynorsk as a language.

A common effort is great, of course, but this is easily done by letting the nn and nb projects have the same maintainers, and having them link to each other and coordinate efforts. Nynorsk and Bokmål are, in spite of their equalities, different languages, and should be treated that way.

As an example, on systems I work on efforts have been done to standardize this. In Debian, no_NO has been dropped in favour of nb_NO. The i18n project within Skulelinux uses nn+nb (http://i18n.skolelinux.no/teknisk.html).

hba’s picture

As a short followup, I'd be more than happy to migrate the "nno" project to "nn" (and to add more project maintainers) on short notice, to ease a transition to a New And Better world with nb+nn.

JohnFilipstad’s picture

Status: Postponed » Closed (fixed)

The status of this bug report is now changed to "closed" due to the following reasons:

After a discussion at Drupal Norge 1 on organizing the norwegian translation projects here at drupal.org, we have decided to deprecate the nno nynorsk translation project in favor of the upcoming nn nynorsk translation project, as well as deprecate the no translation project in favor of the nb translation project.

To make it clearer, we will be maintaining nb and nn, which we agreed to be the standard way of supporting the two different Norwegian Languages.

hba is the maintainer for nn, while JohnNoc is the maintainer for nb 2.

Further reading:

  1. http://www.drupalnorge.no/innlegg/forum/innlegg-113
  2. http://drupal.org/node/124051
hba’s picture

Status: Closed (fixed) » Fixed

Setting this issue to "fixed", to make it more visible for visitors who are interested in the nno/no to nn/nb change. (It will close automatically). That said, I have made an effort to include the people at http://drupal1.no in this translation work, as they also have been working with it for awhile.

hansfn’s picture

Just adding a pointer to the relevant translation tread on drupal1.no:
http://drupal1.no/prosjekter/norsk-oversettelse/starter-med-norsk-overse...

We really, really need to coordinate the translation efforts at http://drupal1.no/ and http://www.drupalnorge.no/forside ...

Hans

Anonymous’s picture

Status: Fixed » Closed (fixed)