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By CMSnewbie on
I upgraded this thing earlier today and it screwed everything up and now I cant even log in, does anyone know what the deal is with this 4.7.0 version? I used fantastico to upgrade. From my perspective drupal really sucks but at least the old version was technically working, now I nor anyone else can even log in and the site is littered with errors, does anyone have any ideas? Any help would be appreciated. My site is www.filmportal.com
Thanks-
Comments
Report bugs here. Be as
Report bugs here. Be as specific as you can and provide details.
-zach
--
harkey design
: z
You used a 3rd party upgrade
You used a 3rd party upgrade tool to upgrade Drupal which failed, and that means Drupal sucks? Next time be sure to backup you files and DB BEFORE upgrading, and also try a search as there are threads relating to issues with Fantastico all over the place;
http://drupal.org/node/64355
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Dominic Ryan
www.it-hq.org
again with the thin skins.
again with the thin skins. It amazes me how defensive people are on this forum. i have been a member for a year and you guys always have the same whiney reaction to the slightest criticism. Kind of pathetic. Although probably not too much more pathetic than my ability to deal with CMS' which I would think would be obvious even to a simpleton as my shortcoming in the area is freely disclosed by my handle.
I wrote more clearly my view on the useability thread and went more into detail a few minutes ago over here: http://drupal.org/node/74586
For the record, and as I mention over there- It is not my intention to attack or denigrate anyone however it is pretty lame that people like you are so prissy over the slightest criticism which only illustrates my point that drupal has some serious drawbacks... were it not the case my criticism would be innefectual and easily dismissed- the mere fact that you and the other guy are so easily offended only gives creedence to my observations.
In any event- As far as your specific statements... I did not realize that installing something via fantastico was not ideal and I dont know why I would do a search beforehand for something that is unknown to me. You make the claim as though I somehow are at fault for this like I should have instinctively known this but your signature is that of an IT company. Perfect example of what I mention on my other thread. You guys make drupal seem so simple and condescend to people who are not MIT graduates like we are to blame for not being able to figure out such a marvelously simple interface when in fact it is only so to people with a PHD in database management.
I recently upgraded my website
Like yourself I am a complete novice when it comes to the workings of things like drupal. I am not a working computer technician but I work for a non-profit organisation as an administrator. And I have learned that if I am not familiar with somethingor a process, then I research my butt of making sure that the decision that i make is the right one. When I decided to upgrade from 4.6 to 4.7.3. I went through the forums and the handbook to see what needed done and how to do it, i read about people's problems.
I was nervous as hell about upgrading knowing that if something went wrong I couldn't fix it, except that I could restore my backup. When I have had problems I ask my questions in the forums and they get answered.
I upgraded my site manually following the instructions to the 'T'. I even modified the process to take into account peoples problems. The upgrade went almost perfectly with a couple to problems which were solved once i went back to the forum. I now have a fully functioning working and upgraded website.
Bush is a putz
just had to say it... so something probably went wrong on the install. Try a new install and port your data over into a working install. If there are specific questions ask...
_______________________________________________________________
"You can always find the storm by listening for the Thunder."
Fusion, thanks for being
Fusion, thanks for being civil which is apparently a foreign concept to apparently a lot of others on this forum. Unfortunately as I mention both in my posts and in my username, while ironically (believe it or not) I am literally a genuis; the truth is sadle I am a complete moron with database management which really adds to my frustration. I am simply unaccustomed to not knowing things it is very odd territory for me for example I have no idea what "porting my data" even means much less being able to do it which is why I used fantastico to begin with as I would have no idea as to how to install it otherwise but once again I do appreciate your civility. Best wishes-
It's all a matter of choosing the CMS that sucks the least
All CMS suck from one stand point or another. They are not perfect. I deal with 5 different CMS on a daily basis. The one that I am working with at the time is the one that makes me say "this sucks". Two days ago it was Joomla, yesterday it was Ezpublish and about a week ago it was AWF. Drupal 4.7 has many things in it that make me want to go postal and I think this sucks also. So I stick to Drupal 4.6 whenever possible. 4.6 sucks less. When I have to do something with phpnuke I use phpnuke 5.6 or Xoops. Because they suck less than phpnuke 7.9.
It's all a matter of choosing the one that sucks the least for the job at hand. If you are going to start a service or business based on a CMS it is best to not go in to it with the idea that you are going to find love. If you try to fall in love with a CMS or actually do then you will find yourself too emotionally involved to make the right decisions based on your needs. In choosing a CMS we sometimes follow the hype rather than following the criteria for the project. You want to stick to your list which will help avoid showing the weaknesses of CMS.
I work with a group of webmasters that are unbiased when it comes to choosing a CMS. We try to approach each project from a neutral standpoint. If you have a list of your needs and Drupal is not suitable for you then post at our forum and we will help you choose a CMS that works for you.
Hiveminds Magazine
http://www.hiveminds.co.uk
for web publishers and community builders
Hive, that is a very lucid
Hive, that is a very lucid assesment and one which if I did not type 15 words a minute would have gone further into detail with as that is actually what i was really thinking as I wrote this post and the one over here: http://drupal.org/node/74586
truth be told, I actually think Drupal is probably one of the better, if not best CMS' out there - my irritation with it, and people on this forum is that everyone claims it to be so easy to work with when this is completely a bald faced lie- it just is that it might be less crummy than all the others, but that still doesn't mean it is easy, just easier by comparison but I take issue with people who run IT companies like the above guy getting all whiney because us non- MIT graduates have trouble and express our frustration. i am not here to slam Drupal in the slightest although I guess my title seems otherwise... maybe if someone besides a single person had answered my other thread which I posted this morning asking kindly for help i would not have chosen a title that would illicit a response. My site has been offline basically for over 24 hours and I get 30,000 unique visitors a day so not getting any help in all that time is pretty crummy.
I just looked at your site and it looks amazing. i definitely envy and respect people like you who "get" this stuff- I definitely dont. I am definitely out of my element here. What makes me mad is because Drupal supporters want people to adopt the system out of loyalty or some other reason misrepresent how difficult it is and mislead people whoi have no business even trying and then months later when they are losing thier mind say: "well screw you find another CMS if you dont like it" like the above guy when if they had just been honest to begin with I would not have wasted 6 months of my life trying to master something which is a morass of crazy heirarchies or whatever word it is drupal users use I forget it offhand.
Your candor is appreciated
in saying:
"Drupal 4.7 has many things in it that make me want to go postal and I think this sucks also. So I stick to Drupal 4.6 whenever possible. 4.6 sucks less."
I'm happier with Drupal (4.6) than the OP, but it does seem like a cheat to promise help from the community that isn't there. I have no choice until I get my current project working - then I'll make everyone happier by taking my "stupid" questions elsewhere.
4.7 has some improvements to Event and User/Profile, things the site really needs, but I've been afraid I'd pay for those features with an avalanche of other problems. I wanted to ask if that was probable, but didn't think I'd get an honest answer.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions. I'm sure it will save me a lot of grief.
D. Lynn
Oh boy where do i start. OK
Oh boy where do i start.
OK let me first explain that i feel your frustration sometimes with Drupal or any other CMS for that matter. I'm no php programmer, i'm no coder at all, my HTML is limited to pretty normal tags, CSS experiance is more on tweaking that writing a full style sheet and my design skills don't always take me where they need to go. Does this mean Drupal is no good for me ? Far from it.
Drupal, like any program, takes time to learn. Granted there are various easy things you can do straight out of the box and this gets you going, again like any program. However as you come to wish to do slightly more complex tasks you then have little to no choice but to knuckle down and learn.
I could hardly blame Drupal on say my lack of knowledge of Macromedia Dreamweaver for instance, likewise i couldn't do the same for my severe lack of Flash knowledge. These are seperate programs that have a steep learning curve, just like windows does until you know it. Sure its easy to click and point, and in these days to install and launch programs, but not quite so easy to get that rogue driver running or your wifi connection stable. Should microsoft be blamed for that or the user not taking the time to learn more about the system ? By your own arguements i would assume you would say microsoft.
Now i use drupal everyday and yes, was extremely frustrated at the start. Terms were confusing, modules sometimes didn't perform as i wished and yes there is a learning curve there, as all CMS systems. I have used numerous in my admin life and believe you me, theres a learning curve on them all.
Now what you are doing is blaming the core system for a mistake you made yourself. You used Fantastico to originally install your system to ease the learning curve and there really isn't anything wrong with that. Drupal however doesn't state anywhere to do it this way and if truth be known would likely try and shy you away from that as it has potential problems. Now, after a year of you struggling, and frankly i'm wondering if you did sit back and do some serious reading, you have again used Fantastico to upgrade.
Drupal never ever states to use third parties to upgrade and the installation files you download tells you a very clear and simple path on how to perform such operations. Had you read this you would have been wiser on the entire upgrade process and, it is hoped, you would have also backed up your site.
The only sure fire way ANY third party application can be 100% reliable on upgrade is for drupal developers to come around to your server and perform the upgrade themselves. After all, theres hundreds of variables at stake here like you may have tweaked something already, your database may not be as standard as it should, you have third party modules etc.
Now you are blaming Drupal for what has happened, pretty much by your own intentions, from a third party application like Fantastico. Are you over at Fantastico's website claiming it sucks because its just wrecked a working drupal installation on upgrade ?
Also let me ask have you made any backups in the year that you have been struggling with drupal ? If not then you really need to ask the question, why not.
Blaming drupal for both your lack of knowledge and non willingness to learn is not acceptable. Even if you was to pay for software and did the same actions i doubt many developers would listen to your gripes.
Drupal is far from perfect but becomes easy when you get to grips with it. Knowledge my friend is power and no one should have to constantly feed it to you without you too putting the effort in.
I've been running drupal now for 11 weeks and yes have had hickups, frustration and annoyance, like i have any other CMS system. Hell i couldn't grasp either the need, the concept or indeed the reason for Taxonomy for instance until one day it clicked and now i'm using it to great effect and could never do without it. I'm not MIT trained, i'm no expert in any field, i'm not chinese, i'm just an admin that wants to manage his content and expand his website when ideas arise. Drupal fits this need perfectly.
What i would suggest is you take a long hard look at your statements and numerous posts and see how you would feel if you, being a free developer of the system, or indeed IT trained, or further still just regular joe, user of the system would make of them. To me i can see your frustration but you are taking it out on the very people who would be willing to help.
Remember this too my friend, no one owes you anything for using their free system. Help they will, advise they might, but obligate i doubt.
I think, and you really won't like this, that you are not ready to be an admin of your own system and should look for ones that provide that service for you, in a simplier, easier to handle way for you.
A blog would likely suffice and if you went for managed services, paid of course, you can concentrate solely on the content and not on the admin side. To this end you may wish to try some of the following :-
http://www.squarespace.com/?partnerTag=google&planTag=blg
http://www.sixapart.com/typepad/start
http://www.blogger.com
This gives you less learning curve, far less frustration and less stress. If your getting so many visitors a day then it doesn't matter how the backend works, its your content thats brinigng them in.
However if you wish to stick with drupal, and i hope you do, then try and be civil and ask questions. If you have a backup of your site, we could likely offer help and guidiance on how to try and recover from your situation. But remember, this is offered from our own merrits and isn't a god given right.
Your response was very
Your response was very reasonable and helpful. No offense is meant, but there's just a teensy problem with the following logic:
"Now what you are doing is blaming the core system for a mistake you made yourself. You used Fantastico to originally install your system to ease the learning curve and there really isn't anything wrong with that. Drupal however doesn't state anywhere to do it this way and if truth be known would likely try and shy you away from that as it has potential problems. Now, after a year of you struggling, and frankly i'm wondering if you did sit back and do some serious reading, you have again used Fantastico to upgrade."
If the Fantastico install is so universally deprecated here at drupal.org, why is Drupal still linked there? Apparently no one has asked them to remove it. Why did Drupal principals allow it to be included in the first place? And even if they couldn't have anticipated that a connection with CPanel (ie "web administration for dummies") would bring in a flood of newbs wanting someone to hold their hand, they know it now. I've seen it discussed. So why do they continue to allow it? Doesn't inclusion in that context imply a certain ease of use?
Seems to me they want to have their cake and eat it too. One could say, it seems that Drupal principals blame the end user for the consequences of their own marketing strategy.
"I'm just sayin'...",
D. Lynn
you miusunderstand
Fantastico is a host provisioning tool. It is not 'universally depreciated' here. Initall installs using it work fine in many locations and are bad in others. It depends on the individual configurations of the thousands of HOSTING providers. Not Drupal.org. We do not supply files for it, someone who is getting paid by hosting companies does. (good business model for them)
The upgrade instructions provided both in the installation download are fairly clear on how to upgrade. And no where does it say to upgrade via Fantastico. Not ever having seen a Fantastico panel, I have no idea if it says 'upgrade Drupal'. I doubt it does.
You are drawing parallels where none exist. This poor guy made a serious mistake in handling his site upgrade. Then he got very very mad. This is unfortunate for him and his site. His real recourse is to restore his site from backup and then try the upgrade following the instructions. This assumes he has backups. If he doesn't then he has to repair his database manually. Not an easy thing.
Drupal is a CMS. It is very capabale of being setup by talented and/or diligent web neophytes out of the box. They get a working site. Unfortunatly this class of site admin often tends to miss the basics either because they don't bother to learn or they don't know they need to. This is why I link the best practices in my sig, to help neophetes avoid this pain. But it only works if people read it and follow them. When someone gets mad, people tend to be unwilling to extend their help and support. This is just something that happens.
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
I really don't think my
I really don't think my logic is wrong and in actual fact its not even my logic.
The user skipped a learning curve in favour of getting the job done quicker. There really is no problems with that and obviously this is where fantastico has found a niche. However, sooner than latter, that skipped step will come back as an issue when you wish to do something major like a total new branch upgrade, and not having the fundemental knowledge learned for the first part will certainly effect the second.
The user here in question didn't read the installation guidelines set down for this CMS, to his peril. I do feel sorry for him but lets put something into perspective, everything is only as easy as the knowledge that comes with using it. Fantastico is perfectly easy, 1 click and does get the job done, however if the user had taken the time to learn that a little more he would likely have been aware that using it to upgrade a live system is asking for potential problems.
Like any software there is always a learning curve and if you adopt the policy that its not your responsibility to learn that then, in all honesty, you really only have yourself to blame.
We wouldn't blame a car manufacter for instance for a crash you had because you failed to take training in driving, likewise Drupal shouldn't be blamed for the same situation.
No body is pointing fingers here and i think, given the attitude that has been portrayed by the frustrations of this particular member, responses have been polite for the most part. Granted to this member the current situation has been a serious problem but this isn't quite the same to other members here. Whats important for him is less so to others so they won't feel the same sense of urgency. However offers or advice and help have been forthcoming, regardless of attitude, and for me that shows commitment to the system and the ideals that Drupal is instilling.
If this particular member has backups i'm sure, as a community, we can get him back to a state of at least being able to log back into his system. However i voice once more this is a free offer and not a right and should be accepted this way. Please remember we are all admins of systems here and our commitment, as will always, is to our own systems and users first. Sometimes this doesn't allow us the time we'd like to pass on knowledge or advice, we do what we can.
Reply to both Desm0n and Steven
I understand that you (plural you) wish to acculturate new users to the Drupal Way™; that's fine. I'm asking you to step back for a moment from your acculturation efforts, and view the larger picture.
I'm saying the inclusion of Drupal in Fantastico is an example of the second case*. If your marketing builds legions of unhappy customers, you'll get a buzz going all right -- in the wrong direction! Your enterprise would be better off without that kind of marketing.
There's no opportunity for acculturation when they install from Fantastico. Drupal either needs to add infrastructure that eases newbies into acculturation process, or opt out of Fantastico until the application is more foolproof.
The newbies know what they need. They've posted requests for a special "new to CMS" forum. (to which a few experienced users should be assigned and if necessary, given incentives for their assistance.) The newbie forum should be the link people see on the Fantastico page. (An experienced web denizen will wriggle out of that forum a whole lot faster than a newbie can find the most crucial info in the handbook.) It should have some of the most basic information in sticky form, such as "Start here (link to install instructions)", "common MySQL error messages and what they mean", "don't upgrade from Fantastico" or whatever.
What's illogical is saying "he wouldn't have had trouble if he had done" what newbies don't do (e.g. RTFM) and if he had knowledge newbies don't have (e.g. that he can 'port his data'). Well yeah, but until there's a magic spell that turns someone into a geek as they cross the threshold of Drupal, if you want widespread appeal, you have to find a way to accomodate those without the tech gene -- or hold off marketing to them!
My comments are drawn from what I've read in the docs and forums here over the last several months. I'm trying to point out what appears to be a blind spot in the way newbies are handled. This is meant to complement (bolster), not negate, anyone's efforts. If you can't use it, feel free to ignore it. Anyway, thanks for "listening" to my POV.
Cheers,
D. Lynn
* Sorry, I don't believe Drupal.org is unable to choose whether or not it's bundled with Fantastico.
PS: Steven, please hold the definitions; I don't need to be taught the abc's.
Desm0n, I was very careful not to imply that you're in any way illogical.
start writing. Please.
I am serious. If you see a gap, then you need to start filling it. Well, someone does. Telling us to do it for you isn't interesting as I am already doing it and I'm more interested in seeing you start helping everyone else who is. There arn't that many people helping on d.o as it is for a community of our size. It's a surprisingly small number.
Could we use more tutorials? Sure. Guess what. Most people that have lambasted us, or told us how to 'do it right' then told us off that they were going to 'show us' have disappeared. We have asked. I have pleaded for people to do and not talk. I have written some. If you think we can use more documentation then please by all means, help provide it. Use my contact form and I will approve it within a day.
I do not market Drupal. I use Drupal. Others may be interested in marketing Drupal, I'm not. I'm busy with other things. Drupal is a fairly autocratic society. There are no 'users' to assign to forums. THere are only people that do work and provide assistence. As people help, they develop a reputation amongst each other and on the forums. There are different points of view and different ways to approach solutions with Drupal. Many get represented.
If you want to help newbies, then we don't need a special forum. We need people to answer questions and write the docs. There is talk about it and there is actually doing something to solve it. The forums exist already. If you have an installation problem, there is a forum for it. If you have aproblem after your site is up, then there is a foum for it. I really see a 'newbies' forum as segragatting users into a forum and then seeing many ignore it. I have seen other sites where this has happened. So I prefer to have new comers and experienced all share the same forums. It gets questions answered by a wide and diverse group of people. Of course, this is only my opinion.
I see you helping people all over the forums, so in all seriousness welcome to the team. You help, you're a member. That's the team. You provide a patch for Drupal core, then you are now on the Drupal develoment team. Team's are a virutal concept and the heirerchy here is pretty much non-existant. Many people seem to think that it's more complicated then that. It's not. You want to get more involved, join the infrastructure list.
There is no Drupal representative for Fantastico. It is a hosting tool. It helps people get started. It is an excellent tool for this. It is a good thing that the Drupal distribution is hosted in this tool. It's still not something anyone participates in. But using tools to help people do not an expert of you make. The site admin is responsible for learning this. We cannot do it for him. I wrote the best practices for that very purpose. I have it in my sig and harp on it all over the forums for this very reasons. To educate people and draw awareness to the need to take care.
Whether you believe it or not, I can't help. We do not provide a distro for Fantastico.
So many don't bother to even look or know how to look.
handbooks >> Upgrading from a previous version >> Introduction to upgrading and here we find a link to Upgrading to Drupal 4.7
Often, those that don't look are those neophythes that unfortuantly are new to this and many don't know how to do even basic research in technology related software/industries. This is why I post the link in my sig. This is why I post the full trail of links to information. I am not just providing links to the information. I am providing the path to find the information. That is my approach. Teach how when posible. It's fairly effective.
In this case, a user made a serious mistake with his site. He then got very upset and aggressive in a very short time. It is unfortuate. He then made a serious mistake and spammed the forums with multiple angry/nasty message posts within a few minutes and got his account banned. Now, he can't ask for help here. He lost his temper. It's unfortunate. I hope he had a backup.
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
p.s - This is forum conversation. The definitions arn't just for you. They are for those reading our conversation. To aid in understanding and frankly, I don't know you and cannot assume your skills and expertise when trying to convey a point. So no insult intended, just trying to be thorough. I have been slammed for being to brief at times.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Thoughts
As someone who first discovered Drupal via Fantastico, and had never written a line of PHP in his life at the time, I don't think it's turning people off. Rather, I think that Fantastico is a fine solution for first-time users installing a web-app. Due to the complexity of version-to-version upgrades with almost ANY web app, though, Fantastico is... less than ideal for upgrading.
I've destroyed PHPBB installations trying to update from one version to another via Fantastico. Same with Xoops, PHPNuke, and TikiWiki. The moment anything deviates from the core system (via add-on modules, custom skins, data, etc), an automated external updated is just asking for trouble. I'm not trying to dismiss your comments, but I want to make clear that this is a problem with centralized installation scripts for ISPs. People who follow the updating instructions for their particular web-app don't experience the same problems. That applies to Drupal and many other systems.
If Fantastico's script borks Drupal upgrades, it's frustrating, but it is their responsibility as a commercial software developer, selling Fantastico to ISPs, to solve the problem. Drupal, when used in the way that its documentation (and its own README/INSTALL.txt files explain) doesn't experience the same issues.
There's one final point that I wanted to note...
We don't want to get Drupal off the ground. It is off the ground, and cruising at 10,000 feet, and there's a whole crew of people working on it and working with it night and day. :-) Making Drupal easier to use, more reliable, more robust, and more flexible is part of the work that goes on every day.
I understand what you're saying -- that there are people out there who would gladly use Drupal if they had a positive experience with it. But at this point, appealing to a desire to 'see Drupal make it big' is probably not the best approach. The majority of hardcore Drupal folks here are already swamped with work -- both volunteer and for-profit using Drupal -- that it might even be counterproductive. ;)
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Eaton's blog | VotingAPI discussion
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
You guys have gotten really nice!
If Drupal sucks, use something else. You'll find out. Then come back. Drupal does not love you, but it will forgive your pride in leaving. I know. I too one cast spittle upon drupal and walked away full of pride and anger , to find a better solution. If you are going to use a PHP CMS , this is the one. Some are easier to use, just like a softball is easier to hit than a baseball. However if there are pro softball players, they get paid poo-poo.
I'd apologize for the harshness of my reply, but it matches the tone in your post.
Knowledge should be sought with humble heart.