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By markagregory on
In my opinion the single greatest failure of Drupal is to force the theme development community to improve their offering.
One of the great advances for Drupal 8 is the shield identifying modules that are certified for installation.
This concept must be applied to themes. There is an urgent need for themes to be certified for (a) installation on a new Drupal 8 website and (b) installation on an existing Drupal 8 website and (c) being able to be installed through the Appearance->Install new theme feature provided with Drupal 8.
By applying a similar approach website administrators can see whether or not a theme will be able to be applied simply and quickly without destroying the website.
The ongoing horror stories about themes and the cost of repairing websites destroyed by efforts to change the theme must be tackled by Drupal.
For Drupal to go beyond the current chaos, it must tackle the reliability and consistency of third party modules and themes.
Comments
The shield on modules is no
The shield on modules is no guarantee that the module will not cause problems. The shield is issued after a full release (ie - not alpha, beta or a release candidate) has been released. But when this happens is entirely up to the module developer. So a developer can create a new module that doesn't work at all, and release it as a full release, and it will get the shield, even though it may break your site.
What the shield means is that the module is covered by the Drupal security policy, so if there are security issues the Drupal security team will take care of them. They only do this for full releases though.
As for your issue regarding breaking sites by installing a theme that doesn't work, to be honest, this is the fault of the developer. A database backup should always be taken before installing any theme or module. And no one should be testing new themes/modules on live sites (unless it's a hobby site without much importance), testing should be done in a testing environment.
I think you miss the point of
I think you miss the point of the post. Drupal, like most CMS suffer from being half-baked. And the biggest problem today are the third party modules and themes.
If I go onto themeforest every theme there expects to find a new Drupal install and most themes have to be manually installed with kludges along the way.
Drupal would do well to provide guidelines to theme developers on "minimum standards" for themes to be (a) installed on new Drupal 8 installs and (b) to be installed on existing Drupal 8 websites.
To adopt a head in the sand approach to this issue will ensure that Drupal continues to be half-baked. What is the point of a good core if the third party modules and themes that must be installed to ensure the website is appropriate are so bad?
I think you miss the point of
Contributed modules and themes are developed entirely through volunteers. It's what creates the system. What you talk about isn't a CMS issue, it's an open source issue. The alternative is to not allow anyone to create modules/themes, but then there would be significantly less of them. I understand your frustrations, but it's the nature of open source, and in all honesty, isn't going to change, as the alternative would result in significantly less modules and themes, and would be even more of a hit to the system than the current methodology. This is why users of Drupal and any other CMS need to learn to work with the system as it is - ie take backups and test on a development system rather than the live system.
How is Drupal supposed to fix that though - the themes are hosted on a 3rd party site. There isn't anything Drupal can do about that, other than to prevent 3rd party modules from being installed somehow, but that goes against both the spirit and reality of open source.
I do agree that standards would be a good thing. Why don't you put something together, and put it out for the community to discuss. After that, documentation pages can be created and can be linked to from the documentation pages for developing themes etc.
Drupal is hardly half-baked. It's a highly developed open source system with a healthy community. Many of us have been using it for years, creating complex sites for our clients, making a living off of it. And I guarantee that anyone making a living off it is taking the time to take database backups, and to test on a testing server before going live.
Say what? There are thousands of high-quality contributed modules and themes. As a module developer who has contributed modules to Drupal.org, putting in hundreds if not thousands of volunteer hours into maintaining my modules ensuring that they are not 'so bad', I take offense to your blanket statement.
I can only put my point of
I can only put my point of view and if you disagree then that is ok. Drupal will continue to be half-baked and will never reach its potential.
To twist what I'm saying into an attack on volunteers is ridiculous - get off your high horse. Software must be developed to standards and there is a need for certification. Apple has demonstrated that only with stringent controls do you ensure that customers get a reasonable experience. And yes, we can still find apps on the Apple app store that are rubbish, but it is the percentage of rubbish that matters here.
The point you miss - and you've missed them all - is that theme developers SELLING themes on sites like themeforest are generally selling a pitiful product that are woeful at best. This is what is hurting Drupal - we need themes and the majority of themes available are crap.
Drupal should setup a market and sell themes that have been certified as I've mentioned previously. I know I would buy themes from this market as I would be happy to see the back of places selling junk.
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The hyperbole that Drupal won't reach its potential without a plethora of themes has been debunked year after year per the growth of core. The issue you cite has been cited hundreds of times in my ten years and still Drupal's user base grows.
That said much work has gone into and continues to go in to themeing. Themes I design from a base theme are specific to myself or particular client and wouldn't ever been released for public consumption for free or for sale. Otherwise the work that went into the themes for that specific site that makes it visually unique is then lost.
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I'm guessing money was spent and the OP isn't happy with the outcome and wants some sort of police action occur.
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This idea isn't likely to come to fruition for a multitude of reasons that I won't get into except for one. Themes are not tested beyond what core offers unless those themes are included in a distro.
Minimum standards are that themes work with core.
Themeforest and other 'pay-for-play' theme developers can be considered 'pretty' but are rarely in sync with core let alone contrib modules. That's an issue for that community not this one.
If there is an open source CMS out that provides the oversight you seek, please provide a link, I'd like to dig further into whether this is the silver bullet fix. I'm unaware of one and our team works with more than a dozen open source projects.
You make a good point about
You make a good point about other open source communities that do this and I would suggest you look at linux. All publically available linux distros have to meet specified requirements. In a way the modern OS concept e.g. Apple and Google, through the app stores can exert degrees of control and Apple probably exemplifies this today.
What I'm suggesting is Drupal could provide guidelines and a certification process that is based on user feedback - which is what happens with modules today - self regulation. The Drupal projects space is a great approach that ensures that there is a degree of confidence in modules but there is nothing of this kind for themes.
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OS's are different animals with significantly more resources. I thought we were talking about open source content management systems.
There are guidelines for theme developers. There are coding standards that are applicable to to themes (not just modules). If users determine there is an issue with a theme, those issues should be reported in the issue queue of the project. If those themes aren't distributed on drupal.org, that should immediately raise a red flag. The drupal community isn't in a position to police 3rd party theme distributors like theme forest etc.
I'm not sure what part of my
Thank you for providing justification for what I've been writing. The coding standards page that you linked to does not contain specific instructions for theme developers on how to (a) develop a theme and package it so that the theme can be installed using Appearances->install new theme, or uninstalled the same way, and (b) how to develop a theme to install on an existing website - again with the use of the Drupal update feature.
Drupal has Projects where modules are visible and managed. This is an invaluable resource that is a significant positive for the Drupal community.
Drupal could open a marketplace for certified commercial modules / themes and with a reasonable approach this would provide an opportunity for theme vendors to offer themes that can be installed on fresh Drupal or installed on existing websites.
This would be a significant positive for website administrators that do not want to have to go through the chaos that ensues now. To purchase Drupal themes, and I've bought a lot over the years, I've not come across one that can be installed using Appearances->Install new theme and not one that can be installed safely on an existing Drupal website.
Why argue against an obvious problem?
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installation and uninstall of a theme is in a different area of the documentation. I'm sure you can utilize some google foo as I have.
A market place shouldn't be on drupal.org. for code to be distributed from d.o. would also have to be open source and art work or css under also released as GPL. This is discussed is documentation as well related to GPL.
I'm not sure what you are referring here with refernece to the use or the word 'projects'. themes distributed from drupal.org have project pages which state whether the maintenance is active etc no different than modules.
3rd party theme sales tend to include blocks and such that can't simply be installed via the installation of a theme. Thus appearance - enable will never work for those types of themes. Hence why one often must also import the database that ships with the theme.
I suggest you take your idea and build it or file your 'obvious' distaste of themeforest over to their support forums. I'd ask them why they've opted not to distribute their wares from drupal.org where the rules as outlined in documentation can actually be applied.
I
I think themeforest is a symptom of the problem that Drupal should consider as a high priority.
There is an identifiable need for improved commercial themes and Drupal can work to provide a better outcome.
A good start would be development guidelines targeting theme developers, and working with marketplaces like themeforest to provide an improved consumer outcome.
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drupal.org isn't a commercial community and based on the GPL won't ever be.
drupal.org is you. Work for the outcome you seek rather than demand that you need light and for someone else find and light a torch for you. One of the great things about open source is that you can be the change you want to see. Will you? or is your time only available for filing forum posts about 3rd parties that can ultimately distribute whatever product they want on their own site regardless of guidelines as set by this community?
Due diligence with a search engines indicates that there are complaints across much of there market regardless of CMS used.
When website administrators are building sites, they are no longer just an administrator. If you intend to remain an administrator of a site, then you should certainly hire someone to perform the development work.
I'm not here to argue with
I'm not here to argue with you, you appear to have a mindset that will not change, that is ok.
Drupal has a marketplace, it could do what I recommend, it could focus on ensuring the developers of small websites can get a solution that works without ensuing chaos.
Over time, the failure of CMS like Drupal to notice and focus on consumers will lead to more and more websites moving to hosted platforms like WIX. And please don't tell me that Drupal and Wix (for example) are targeted at different end users, because the online hosted platforms are evolving far faster than Drupal is, and will continue to do so whilst people insist that Drupal as a community can only provide a half-baked solution.
To be honest, any site that
To be honest, any site that can be hosted on Wix over Drupal should be hosted on Wix instead of using Drupal. Drupal is a highly complex system that comes with a lot of overhead, whereas Wix is a simpler system for simpler sites. Using Drupal for many sites is overkill, and for sites that can be handled on Wix, it's the better option to go with.
Wix cannot handle what many Drupal sites can however. It's a different scale. When I'm building systems for clients that need multiple installations connected together, transferring data between them, pulling in feeds, using external JS files etc, these are all things Drupal does well, which Wix cannot handle.
I've put both clients and family onto Wix in the past, and I'll continue to do so when it's the right tool for the job - it's very good for what it is. But it will never be able to do what we can with Drupal for more complex stuff.
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Drupal has a marketplace for services which has nothing to do with the GPL that drupal is released under. From that marketplace you can hire someone with the skill set to build you a unique theme rather than using 3rd party sites to purchase something that may or may not work properly.
Again, year after year, version after version users like yourself have predicted that Drupal will fail due to 'this or that' that they've run into issues with. Not one of them have returned to state they were incorrect in their predictions. There are indeed sites and users that don't/won't/shouldn't utilize Drupal. Drupal powers some of the largest sites on the internet. Granted there are developers behind those sites that don't use canned themes and can work their way through bugs in modules or when needed write their own. Those are the sites that push Drupal further into the market. It isn't the one off blogging site, or the small business brochure site that makes the splash and generates the revenue required to continually develop core.
You can't make every happy all of the time only some of the people happy some of the time.
Are
It is certainly interesting to receive fifteen messages indicating you think that Drupal does not need to improve and everything is just great. You opinion matters. And mine does too.
Drupal could improve by looking to ensure modules and themes are better quality. I think that Drupal does a good job of managing contributed modules. There is scope to take this approach and apply to commercial themes.
And the coding documentation could include improved and more comprehensive guidelines on theme development.
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Now you're generalizing my statements. I never said Drupal doesn't need to improve just that the area you are discussing isn't where Drupal's largest issues are that need improving. You're ignoring some some points throughout this discussion that are quite telling.
Indicating that anyone stated your opinion doesn't matter is pure nonsense. No one has said that. You generated a controversial subject to the thread and then want to whine because others have different and strong views in opposition. boo hoo!
Documentation issues are handled in issues queues not the forums. The community at large is responsible for documentation. Have you written any in the 3+ years you've been a community member?
Please think, write one reply
Please think, write one reply and stop the SPAM.
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When you run drupal.org you can remove the edit link. Until such time, I will edit as I see fit. Control yourself rather than trying to exert control over others (especially on the internet).
Was a nice try editing your comment multiple times. The email address on my profile is a dead end ;)
As you're not contributing
As you're not contributing anything but SPAM, I've sent your messages to junk email. You may SPAM to you're childish content.
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My contributions are widespread. I'm not at all insecure about my contributions. As far as the latter part of your comment ... that is simply the pot calling the kettle black.
You're trying to drive change in a forum like the hundreds before you. Change is generated in the issue queues of drupal.org and by putting in the time to make the change a reality. Change does not occur with wild predictions, controversial form post subjects, and inflammatory language about the contributions of others.
Drupal isn't aimed at the market as a whole but a segment of the market. Drupal isn't on a mission to supplant wordpress as can be read in the founders own words. It's quite possible your sites don't fall into that segment and you're trying to use a sledge hammer when you simply need a screwdriver.
As you're not contributing
You can disable notifications in your control panel.
apples and oranges ...
I disagree ...
Drupal is a far more sophisticated platform than that provided by the canned website purveyors. Drupal modules implement features and functionality only available on the most advanced CMS systems. Any commercial CMS with features comparable to Drupal likely sells for licenses that cost thousands of dollars per server.
Admittedly, Drupal requires expertise. More importantly, Drupal depends on a user audience willing and able to read extensive documentation, and understand many abstract and concrete concepts, along with a decent understand of LAMP stack deployment, in order to learn it and deploy it.
Admittedly, Drupal has over the years catered more and more to a community of professional software engineers who deploy it for others, often to build quite complex websites. I don't believe that Drupal should dumb itself down for people unable or unwilling to keep up.
spritefully yours
Technical assistance provided to the Drupal community on my own time ...
Thank yous appreciated ...
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The above is no doubt being driven by the OP's issue @ https://www.drupal.org/node/2841722
no authoritarianism ...
Creating some sort of Drupal code police force or authoritarianism is anathema to open source ...
The very notion of creating some sort of code police force around Drupal contradicts the open source approach.
Drupal depends on users of it to develop the necessary expertise to deploy efficiently.
Whether working with Drupal 7 or Drupal 8, there are just too many components involved (thousands) for the mostly volunteer community to operate as a police force over it.
It is up to Drupal user to find appropriate components.
When it comes to themes, there are numerous commercial theme developers whose products are impressive enough to entice people to pay for them.
I personally use commercial theme products and find the best of them well worth the money.
When purchasing something like a commercial theme, it is the responsibility of the theme buyer to update the Drupal core and module code that comes with it, and to have or develop the necessary Drupal expertise to know how to do so properly. The fact that modules and core are often updated frequently, it is all the more the responsibility of Drupal user to learn enough about Drupal to do so competently. For those unwilling or unable to develop the necessary expertise, there is an entire universe of Drupal consultants who can and will do it for others, albeit usually for an hourly rate nearly that of hiring an attorney.
The open source universe just isn't set up to create some sort of overlord enforcement of either theme developers or module developers for that matter, since there are commercial Drupal module and Drupal distribution products available as well.
spritefully yours
Technical assistance provided to the Drupal community on my own time ...
Thank yous appreciated ...
impression
You give the impression of being someone who hasn't even read through the basic online Drupal 8 document, nor even the documentation on managing a LAMP server.
Your criticism has the appearance of an unwarranted complaint based on ignorance of even the most basic aspects of installing just plain Drupal on a LAMP server.
You are blaming some poor theme on your failure to understand the basics of configuration of the Drupal PHP/js code base on the LAMP server's file system.
spritefully yours
Technical assistance provided to the Drupal community on my own time ...
Thank yous appreciated ...