General discussion on ERPAL platform

Hey Stagger Lee,
Thank you for your feedback.
Yes you are right, currently it's hard to update ERPAL Platform from the old version to newest, but we are still in progress with this project., that's why we only have alpha versions, because API still can be changed each day.
Lets take, as an example, development of Drupal 8. I remember when I have tried just to update the code from an old alpha version to the newest, I immediately had fatal error, and only after the full re-installation, it works as expected. The same works for ERPAL platform. Only after BETA version we will have a stable API.
Actually, this is on what we are currently working on. We are always looking forward to feedbacks/improvements. And If you have some errors after full re-installation of ERPAL platform, please create a new issue, and we will try to fix it.
Takin into consideration the documentation part, we have already started to implement documentation as well (http://erpal-platform.readthedocs.org/en/latest/). But currently we can't finish full documentation, as I have mentioned before, we still don't have stable API.

Thanks, Andrew

Probably this discussion should run under an other point than just VAT & Co.
For it is moreover a general ERPAL platform problem:
The way ERPAL platform is constructed now I see it a a very fragile distribution, which can quickly crash into something like described here by Stagger Lee. Ad I see it not only as an alpha/beta problem. It is moreover the ERPAL platform construction:

1.) The installation problems you describe I had, as well. I resolved by installing the erpal on my pc localhost and then copy to the web-server (changing then the file paths). However the installation should work everywhere...
2.) The update from one alpha to the next has to be done very carefully: The best solution so far: Delete /profile/erpal_platform and and replace it with the newest version. And never use drush up! Only drush up .
3.) Deactivate, but never change or delete something in the given distribution configuration. You can add fields (and views) just as you want, but you shouldn't delete or modify nothing from the erpal_platform

So far my advices, which doesn't mean, that I agree with this fragile distribution configuration. From my outside view on ERPAL platform (I am not a developer), the ERPAL platform has a lot of weak points in its architecture I would love to change or improve. In same time I understand the complexity of the profile's composition, that make any change posterior difficult:
Erpal is a complicate configuration on three/for config levels of panels, rules, views, crm core, commerce, and entities, content types, field collections and all referred to each other ...
This all together makes the power of the framework, but it is in same time its fragile point, which can result very quick in a bunch of error message or even wsod ...

I propose therefore that we open an other discussion for feature requests and proposals. The ERPAL platform is a great project and worth to get some more features feedback to imprve its usability ...

Look Stagger Lee : ERPAL Platform is still an alpha-version baby in first year :-)
You have to treat and feed it carefully - then it won't crash -
Just as I said - ERPAL Platform is still not robust enough to modify it. You only can add on your wishes.
In practice this means:
Download the last version and install the profile (you can do it as well with multisite)
Next step: Don't touch this running system! - just as you shouldn't touch drupal core ....
Any additional modules/libraries/themes you have to put always into sites/all - but never add here modules/libraries/themes which are also in profiles/erpal_platform - if not: Crash ...
Don't modify the existing fields - only add fields. But you can always hide fields you need anymore. Same with views/panels/ etc. -
If you have problems with the speed: A point can be that you have the same module twice - once in sites/all + profiles/erpal_platform - this happened to me :-(

Regarding to you initial point "How to show VAT/Tax in line items" I have to say, I agree with you: it is confusing and it will take me a moment the logic behind and how to modify the best to my needs .... There are other ERP programs more easy to handle at first sight but even more complicate to modify - and this is the reason why I continue with ERPAL platform despite all its inconvenient and alpha diseases ....

Before I stated with ERPAL I had built a own combination of CRM core, Commerce, Views, and Rules. It worked well up to a certain point. In some points even better, eg I could without do import/export just with feeds (in ERPAL platform it is currently not possible to import data with feeds or migrate. A own module has still to be written ... for me currently the most negative point on ERPAL platform.
However the ERPAL platform package in total is far better than what ever I could built on alone and my own with drupal modules combinationns, and - very important - there is a team a community behind.

A good free alternative in Python is Tryton. But just as ERPAL and other free CRM software there is not much documentation and you can losee a lot of time to find out ho things work (or nor work).

For Non-Profit organizations CiviCRM can be a quick and easy solution. You can run it from several websites once and even different cms systems (Drupal, Wordpress, Joomla). But it is not very flexible in layout and and configuration beyond the predefined configuration. - And you will get even quicker than with ERPA be lost in error messages, when you touch the running system ...

My personal wish for the ERPAL platform future:
A MUST will be an import/export tool, and better it will be to set all essential profile contrib modules (like rules, views, crm core, commerce) into sites/all/modules - and independently upgradable. And a last main wish is, more flexibility and variations with the erpal theme: the current panel solution + cat + views makes every little layout modification to a long best practice research project ...

So best to stay with ERPAL platform ;-) - It is maybe not the best out-of-the-box solution, but the best framework to adapt to personal or company or organismic needs with the means of Drupal ...

Hi Stagger Lee,
thank you for your comments.
We are very happy about feedback and are willing to help you and yes, we do fix bugs as well.
One thing I would ask you though, please treat us with respect and politeness.
As you said, we do this for free and this is also why we can't do it full time.
After reading your first comments my mood dropped and I didn't really want to help you, as I felt offended by them.
So please please don't attack any of the ERPAL developers Team like this and we are happy to help.

As AndrewsisZ and ChoY already mentioned ERPAL is still in in Alpha.
We try to make it very flexible because we try to learn from ERPAL for service providers which is very hard to customize.
But making a very flexible solution, that is easy for you to customize, is very very hard.
Building a truly extendable base framework has given us headaches more than once.
Actually we also contribute to Drupal Commerce, as it is sometimes not flexible enough.
And even after one year we still have major changes in the basic concept, as we realize that it is not as flexible yet as we envisioned.

This is also why we have a, at first look, quite confusing sitebuilding with panels etc.
As I said we learned from building and customizing ERPAL for service providers which is often hard.
And we always try to use standard Drupal stuff so it is easy for Drupal developers to get into it.
But no one ever said Drupal itself was that easy. I remember the frustrations that I sometimes had when I started.
I don't want to say, that this is a good thing, but understanding a flexible and versatile framework takes some time.
If you want something easy to understand you often end up with a not so flexible framework and often can't implement what you intended.

About the taxing stuff:
We will have working taxation once we go Beta until then it unfortunately is some more work.
Making a framework that supports VAT and Salestax, that can handle the different rounding errors etc. is very complex.
And I remember the pain I had, when Drupal commerce handled the rounding differently than my invoicing system.
This way the invoice total amount would not match the order total in the web shop for example.
Especially taxing (that is also different in lots of countries) is one of the hardest parts of building software like this.

We don't want to give you one solution, we want to give you a framework, that you can build your solution upon.
Please respect that this takes some time. We could have managed the development in private, then you might not even know what we are doing.
But we decided to open up the whole process so you can already have a peak view.
Nobody said, it was stable and ready to use, so please keep this in mind.

What I read that you say about the other solutions, I think we are on the right track here.
There are currently over 10.000 modules for Drupal 7, we can't test all of them, so when customizing ERPAL you might run into ERRORS that we don't know of.
If you find errors in ERPAL, with contributed modules or need assistance, please report them to us.
We are willing to help.
As already mentioned we also started adding documentation, but this again takes time and final API in most cases.
We are trying though to especially fill in the gaps you have at the moment.
So the more people ask about ERPAL the more we know what to add to the documentation.
We don't know exactly what it feels like getting started with ERPAL so we are depending on your feedback.

We will discuss the other suggestions in this issue in our Team.
The folder for modules is something we are tied to by how drupal distributions work I guess.
And sometimes we need to patch (to fix bugs etc.) contrib modules to use them.
In this case updating is not a good Idea anyways.
Unfortunately drush up has never worked for any distribution for me yet, so it is not only us, that has these issues.

Since this turned into a more general discussion I recommend changing the title and going on with this discussion.

Hello Stagger Lee. In fact I remember the discussion we had in the ERPAL for Service Providers issue queue with the same results that we have here. So I skipp all these things and focus on what brings us forward.
It is exactly

"If I would report them whole first page on "Issues" would be mine."

If you mage to write all issues on an objective base so that each issue queue member can reproduce your bugs, we can help you and you can help to bring ERPAL Platform forward.

To bringt ERPAL Patform on D8 we will first wait until all contrib modules we need are ported to D8 and close to stable. Otherwise there will be more complexity which will increase your problem even more.

May be you will attend Drupalcamp in vienna, so we can meet personally there and I can help you with issues and explenations hands-on.

I work now mostly a half year with ERPAL platform. It took me a while to understand most processes behind (and I still have discover some more). I use ERPAL platform for production (currently only for intranet). It works well and quick (on varnished server).

Personally I could easy follow the applied CRM core and the Commerce configuration, but the Panels are causing me a permanent headache, just because I don't have to much practice with Panels and I don't like them. I would have preferred that the panels are not used in the basic framework, if not addable a gusto, just as other options (blocks/boxes/beans) by the ERPAL user/clients ... But ERPAL (with panels or not) is such a good work done, that I won't renounce any more to this great ERP instrument added to the Drupal Worlds.

Currently I miss following essential features in ERPAL Platform:

1. An contact import tool (the commerce profile address and the field collection for phone/mail/url are not importable neither through the Feed or the CRM migrate modules! - This is for me so far the most negative point n ERPA platform)
2. A built in Calendar
3. A built in document content type

Best practices experiences I made with following added modules (set to sites/ll/modules)

1. Access Control Modules: simple_access (to avoid in a simple that project and tasks can be viewed by non-authorized users), and Organic Groups (og), to build task forces and to get exclusive access to content types and CRM core entities
2. Media Module(s) work well with ERPAL - except a layout bug when using multiple upload fields (a strange yellow overlay make it unusable) - Currently I avoid this bug by using a multiple field collection.
3. Multilingual modules i18n and entity translation are going well well
4. Other little helper modules : e.g. distro_update is very helpful distinguish /profiles/erpal_platform/modules/contrib and /sites/all/modules - or e.g. the module reply to set comments to entities

@Stagger Lee: Your installation and update problems I had as well. - In between it is getting better... But it has to be said: A Drupal profile installation is never a real flexible thing. I think it would be better, that ERPAL on long term is either a module demanding a bunch of dependencies, or even better, that the different ERPAL platform components can be added modular from /sites/all/modules. Currently this is not possible, but I hope it will be ...

@Stegger Lee:
If you want to compare Wordpress vs Drupal it is surely not the right place here. There are enough other places in the web, where this can discussed. Here the discussion goes around the ERPAL platform...
Your istallation problems themes to be more house made than an Drupal or an ERPAL problem.
Better you check first the Drupal installation instruction (they are not more complicate than Wordpress, just a little bit different! - And regarding Drual profile installations (in between Erpal platform) yu find as well sme additional recommendations on drupal.rg and elsewhere ....
Basically it can be said: You install the profile - and then you better do touch it anymore - until there is an profile update. - Once the update is out you delete profiles/ (Erpal or whatever profile> and the replace it with the new version - please not the verison with core! - - then you run uodate.php - nd everrything is fine again ...
PS please no more discussion here on wordpress vs drupal !!!

as some positive follow this discussion a recommendable modules to add to erpal platform:
Custom Search - good and easy solution to add specific search boxes for erpal content such as project tasks crm-core/contacts & activities) - After comparing it with module search api. Custom search is much easier ti handle - and it is quick enough for small data (big data search handle still have t be tested ...)
Just install custom search and add search blocks to the dashboard ....
Integration with search block by erpal context may also be possible
Proposal the developer team: An integration of the custom search module to the erpal_platform profile?

A good hint thanks!
We want to keep ERPAL only as complex as neccessary and focus on features that are needed to build business applications with Drupal. Otherwise the dependency on additional modules will increase the complexity of the distribution. Therefor we prefer tutorials, contributed features and modules as well as documentations that show sitebuillders how they could add and configure modules such as the custom search module on their own.

Yes you are right Manuel: Instead of loading even more modules into the profiles/erpal_platform profile it would be better to minimize the profile modules ...
However: I think it would be good to have some exchange/listing on best practice with erpal_platform added modules to sites/all/modules ... where do yo propose to add such tutorials?

Hey ChoY,
we actually started a documentation page for ERPAL platform where we try to explain concepts and best practices: http://platform.docs.erpal.info/
As always, since ERPAL is not in BETA yet, some of the concept is already outdated (line items and budgets).
So be careful when reading it. But I hope it still helps some body.

In the development section we want to collect best practices and tutorials.
The first article we already published is this one: http://platform.docs.erpal.info/en/latest/development/comments/
That is how we want to provide documentation.
If you have requests for topics feel free to ask here in the issue queue and we try to add it.
But of course you can help us with the docs. Especially best practices and the like are very important I guess.

The docs are based on https://readthedocs.org/ and code is on https://github.com/brightsolutions/ERPAL-Platform-Docs
You can always send us pull requests on ERPAL and we check that we include it.

Yes Bechthold - good idea - with the http://platform.docs.erpal.info/
But I have to say I was (and I am still) irritated about the software solution.
Instead of using a Drupal own solution easy to integrate with own Drupal/Erpal websites, you use this https://readthedocs.org/ ?
Maybe it is a very good tool, better than any Drupal solution, but it has first to be understood how it works and how to add or edit content - the link to git doesn't help me a lot and so far I didn't found the time to understand the documentation logic and there is also no explanation on how t work with the doc ...
In a more moment with some more time for try out this unknown software I may I will have a look after - but for now I will ignore because I miss the immediate user usability -

Hey ChoY,
thx for the feedback.
I really don't like the d.o documentations too much.
They are often not maintained too much either and often contain out of date stuff.
We try to keep the ERPAL docs always up to date and I think the structure is much nicer with readthedocs.
Also nice is, that it is plain markdown that needs to be written. This is usually picked up in 5 minutes.

We added some more info on how to contribute to the docs, but we tried to link to existing resources and not duplicate content.
If you still find this confusing, please let us know.

Bechthold, sorry this morning I tried again to deal again anyhow with http://platform.docs.erpal.info/
The confusing part for me is: I can either read sidelong explanations on how to contribute (I have neither time neither the willing to study all this sites just for adding some content) - or I try it the simple intuitive way and just click the button "Improve this doc" - but this just leads me to the master https://github.com/brightsolutions/ERPAL-Platform-Docs - where I can download and that's it - and I just feel a little bit dummy with my simple question:
Where is the button to add or edit content? Or maybe I have to create a new version for comparison with the master version, but where is the button or the link to add a version?
There is no intuitive way to find it, just the side long description that may lead me a result - I would prefer the easier way ... Thanks in advance for some better indications on hoe to contribute on http://platform.docs.erpal.info/

Ok, I understand.
Since it is hosted and maintained in git, there unfortunately is not "edit" button.
But I will try to make very easy instructions.
I hope I find some time tomorrow.

I just wanted to add my experiences on ERPAL Platform. After testing it for a couple of days,
watching some of the related screencasts for ERPAL for Service Providers.

We are a small business combining a webshop (currently based on Drupal Commerce) and a service providing agency.
Since we are just around 3 people cooperating. ERPAL for Services providers seems already to heavy for us, and ERPAL
Platform just fine and really promising. Thanks again for the work.

I tested both the latest ERPAL Platform stable and the latest dev versions.

Sorry in advance if I declare a demanded function which is already implemented and I was just to blind to recognize it,
it might be at least and UX/UI issue then. ;)

I stumbled upon these things:

Functions
-From all of our orders we need to create invoices, from many of our quotes we need to create orders. A function
providing "Create order from quote" or "Create invoice from order" would be awesome. (Maybe with rules)
-Separable systems for ingoing (our business as customer) and outgoing (our business as vendor) invoices would be great.
Preferable with the possibility to add a custom invoice number (the actual invoice number of the other business) to avoid one ongoing invoice number for both outgoing and ingoing invoices.

General
-Fatal Error after updating: https://www.drupal.org/node/1032054. Solved it by:
--Removed jQuery dependeny: https://www.drupal.org/node/2369591

--drush rr
--Some database modifications: Added missing pieces as described in error.

-The revenue system doesn't work as expected and described here: http://platform.docs.erpal.info/en/latest/.
How I understood it, it should list all the unbilled orders. I created some, which doesn't appear then in the Revenue section.

Hope that helps. I will keep you posted as soon as I recognize something.

Hey pehka,
thx for sharing your experience, please be careful though when watching the ERPAL for service providers screencasts.
The functionality is completely different.

Sorry in advance if I declare a demanded function which is already implemented and I was just to blind to recognize it,
it might be at least and UX/UI issue then. ;)

That is not bad, even if it is an UI issue we will only notice this if you tell us :-)

From all of our orders we need to create invoices, from many of our quotes we need to create orders. A function
providing "Create order from quote" or "Create invoice from order" would be awesome. (Maybe with rules)

You are right and this is exactly the workflow that we want in ERPAL. Yes it already exists ;-)
When you open a Quote or Order there are blue action buttons at the top, that do exactly that.
Where were you looking for a functionality like that? Maybe we can add it there as well.

Separable systems for ingoing (our business as customer) and outgoing (our business as vendor) invoices would be great.

Sounds like you want some kind of account feature, is that correct?
You can actually change the vendor in invoices, so you could just edit the views to filter by vendor for example.
But the question is, would you want to "create" the invoices for the vendor when you are the customer? Probably not.
So maybe it would be better to actually create a new entity that only holds the information from incoming invoices but doesn't serve as an invoice itself like our invoices do.
This way you could implement a reporting and accounting feature as you like it and the problem with the ongoing invoice numbers would also not exist.
Do you understand what I mean?

Fatal Error after updating

I have not had or heard of this error yet. If you can reproduce it, please create a separate issue, then we will check if it is something we can fix.

The revenue system doesn't work as expected

We just refactored a lot on the revenue system, because the line items we used were not flexible enough to cover all use cases we could think of.
That might be why it was broken in the mean time. We just finished this and are testing the final changes.
But you might have misunderstood it a little bit as well.
I should not list all anbilled orders, but all unbilled line items that can be billed.

I hope this helps you. Otherwise get back to us :-)
Cheers
bechtold

Hey bechtold,
It does help me a lot, thanks for clearing things up.

Where were you looking for a functionality like that? Maybe we can add it there as well.

I expected it on the overview page of the of the source the created item will use. Meaning for invoices on the order page, for orders on the quote page. Another but not so ideal solution would be to place it on the overview page of the item you want to create - for creating and invoice from an order, there might be a button on the invoive overview page.

I have not had or heard of this error yet. If you can reproduce it, please create a separate issue, then we will check if it is something we can fix.

I will open another thread for the errors I receive.

Sounds like you want some kind of account feature, is that correct?

Yes, I wanted to implement a simple accounting feature. Sounds like a solution you provided.

Thanks!

Hi,

I would like to ask a few things similar to those discussed above.
We have installed ERPAL Platform - 7.x-3.0-beta2.
The scenario that care us is to implement ERPAL at small company whose business is
graphic design, prepress, print production and selling souvenirs.
We have an inquire about graphic design and print production with the following parameters

• Leaflet, A4 (210x297 mm), full color (4+4), paper 300 gr./m2, 1000 pcs.

To realize the sales process we follow the steps bellow:

1. Create an "Quote" for the client (from contacts) with two line items;
   • Production of graphic design and prepress - 100 BGN;
   • Print production of leaflets, A4, full color (4+4), paper 300 gr./m2, 1000 pcs. - 200 BGN
   • Payment 100% on delivery;
2. Next approve the "Quote" and create an "Order" with the same line items and also approve it;
3. Create invoice with the same lines;

In this production we have expenses for print production of the leaflets (150 BGN).
My question is where we can put this expenses (if this functionality exists), so after we complete the invoice can see the real income of (150 BGN) from this process.