WEBVTT 45 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:18.280 benji: welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for June 7, th 2024. 46 00:11:18.630 --> 00:11:21.869 benji: I'm Benji Fisher, moderating and sharing my screen. 47 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:27.450 benji: and also present are Andres Vankoff, author, Charl Ralph Kohler 48 00:11:27.710 --> 00:11:29.290 benji: and Simo Helston. 49 00:11:31.990 --> 00:11:38.999 benji: So we're going to start with this issue. Number 3, 4, 3, 2, 4, 7, one. 50 00:11:39.670 --> 00:11:46.029 benji: add an indication of disabled menu items when they are disabled because of their parents. 51 00:11:48.940 --> 00:11:50.620 benji: and let's see, I have 52 00:11:51.680 --> 00:11:56.639 benji: a test site set up. Let me share the link in the zoom chat. 53 00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:07.400 benji: and 54 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:13.339 benji: you can log in as usual, has admin with the password Admin. 55 00:12:16.020 --> 00:12:17.760 benji: and I've 56 00:12:18.010 --> 00:12:23.320 benji: already applied the patch to this site. So I think we can just go to 57 00:12:24.610 --> 00:12:26.050 benji: menus. 58 00:12:28.250 --> 00:12:33.159 benji: I always look at the administration menu because it's the biggest and most complicated. 59 00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:35.830 benji: And 60 00:12:38.590 --> 00:12:43.959 benji: if, say, I don't want to show display modes in the administration menu. 61 00:12:44.620 --> 00:12:46.549 benji: so that would be under 62 00:12:47.030 --> 00:12:48.460 benji: structure. 63 00:12:48.790 --> 00:12:52.209 benji: display modes, and it has 2 children. 64 00:12:52.680 --> 00:12:54.060 benji: So there it is 65 00:12:55.912 --> 00:12:57.520 benji: sort of in use. 66 00:12:59.870 --> 00:13:00.495 benji: The 67 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:02.790 benji: I could 68 00:13:03.260 --> 00:13:05.490 benji: uncheck the enabled box. 69 00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:11.429 benji: and then, when I save the form, let's see what happens. 70 00:13:17.180 --> 00:13:23.959 benji: What's new is this label disabled by parent that has been added to the 2 child elements. 71 00:13:24.590 --> 00:13:28.259 benji: And now, when I look at the structure, menu, I no longer see 72 00:13:29.070 --> 00:13:31.000 benji: display modes listed. 73 00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:34.133 benji: Oh, and 74 00:13:34.890 --> 00:13:37.870 benji: See, Thomas Hell has just joined us. Hi, Thomas! 75 00:13:41.738 --> 00:13:44.981 benji: So so before this issue, 76 00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:50.270 benji: we added the disabled label to the thing we disable. 77 00:13:50.550 --> 00:13:51.665 benji: But 78 00:13:53.300 --> 00:13:57.050 benji: But there's nothing added to the child elements until this patch. 79 00:13:57.710 --> 00:14:01.079 benji: and, as Ralph Kuller points out in the chat, yes. 80 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.140 benji: the enabled option is still checked. 81 00:14:05.390 --> 00:14:07.190 benji: For the child elements. 82 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:16.360 benji: So any questions about 83 00:14:17.083 --> 00:14:19.200 benji: what this patch is doing? 84 00:14:27.430 --> 00:14:29.449 benji: I don't see any questions. 85 00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:37.889 benji: So yeah, I think Ralph brings up the the obvious question, should we disable 86 00:14:38.010 --> 00:14:39.649 benji: the child elements? 87 00:14:42.750 --> 00:14:45.300 benji: I would say, probably not. 88 00:14:47.660 --> 00:14:51.050 benji: because the way it currently works when we 89 00:14:51.470 --> 00:14:54.930 benji: later change our mind and decide to re-enable 90 00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:02.370 benji: the parent element. You know, whatever choices we've made for the child, elements will be saved. 91 00:15:07.260 --> 00:15:14.550 benji: And you know there there might be more than 2. There might be lots of child elements, and we might want some of them displayed, and some of them not. 92 00:15:15.890 --> 00:15:20.980 benji: And and we might want to keep that set of decisions. Go ahead, Ralph. 93 00:15:23.079 --> 00:15:29.369 Ralf Koller: I agree to the perspective you've brought up. But my problem with it is basically 94 00:15:29.390 --> 00:15:38.539 Ralf Koller: me as a user, I would be confused. It's because those are mixed messages on the left, and look on the left column on the menu link manual link column. 95 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:43.199 Ralf Koller: You have, for for example, foremost disabled by parent, while 96 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:48.840 Ralf Koller: on the enabled column we still have the enabled checkbox. So I ask myself. 97 00:15:49.300 --> 00:15:50.660 Ralf Koller: what does count here? 98 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:54.645 benji: Okay. 99 00:15:55.901 --> 00:16:01.919 benji: On the other hand, that confusion is already present before this, and 100 00:16:03.302 --> 00:16:09.119 benji: per, perhaps adding, the label is not enough, but it's probably a step in the right direction. 101 00:16:09.450 --> 00:16:10.950 benji: Go ahead, offer. 102 00:16:12.350 --> 00:16:15.840 Ofer Shaal: Yeah, I agree. I guess Bench is what you said. And, Ralph, but 103 00:16:15.860 --> 00:16:20.490 Ofer Shaal: I I think it's a it's a great patch. As it is, it's adds clarity. 104 00:16:20.510 --> 00:16:25.799 Ofer Shaal: We need to figure out what to do with enabled. But I I totally see on projects. I have 105 00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:41.800 Ofer Shaal: a very extensive tree, where sometime the top 3. One need to be disabled, and a lot of choices are made below that, and I would like the option to keep that all these selections, even that I disabled or enable the top. 106 00:16:42.540 --> 00:16:45.006 benji: Okay? And you get a thumbs up from Ralph's. 107 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.919 benji: I want to try one more thing. What happens when we 108 00:16:50.710 --> 00:16:54.519 benji: disable the parent, and also one of the children. 109 00:16:55.130 --> 00:16:57.100 benji: What is the messaging then? 110 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:07.480 benji: okay. So 4 modes is disabled, not just disabled by parent. I I think that's the right behavior. 111 00:17:08.423 --> 00:17:12.016 benji: I'd also like to point out that. 112 00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:17.649 benji: Say, we decide to disable the entire structure menu 113 00:17:18.228 --> 00:17:21.579 benji: which has a huge number of of children. 114 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.370 benji: and as in that case, as you scroll 115 00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:29.640 benji: now, there's. 116 00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:32.240 benji: you know, no, no indication 117 00:17:32.530 --> 00:17:36.650 benji: on the screen that the the structure menu is disabled. 118 00:17:37.040 --> 00:17:42.240 benji: And this this is, I think, where? Where? It's most important to have some indication. When 119 00:17:43.310 --> 00:17:50.670 benji: you know, for testing purposes. I I chose this, which has only 2 children. But it's it's really most important when it has a lot of children. 120 00:17:52.300 --> 00:17:54.019 benji: So let's see if I were to 121 00:17:55.750 --> 00:17:57.050 benji: uncheck so 122 00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:59.410 benji: structure and save that. 123 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:01.820 benji: So now 124 00:18:02.120 --> 00:18:03.940 benji: all of these 125 00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:06.299 benji: are disabled by parent 126 00:18:07.100 --> 00:18:11.669 benji: display modes is disabled by itself, swore modes, is disabled by itself. 127 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:21.140 benji: Oh! And offer asks in the chat. Can you try to remove 128 00:18:21.210 --> 00:18:23.460 benji: a disabled by parent item 129 00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:25.880 benji: outside that parent? 130 00:18:26.110 --> 00:18:30.920 benji: So I am expecting it to become enabled. I'm I'm not sure what you're asking. 131 00:18:31.150 --> 00:18:39.450 Ofer Shaal: So if you take any of the items that are not disabled specifically, but because they belong to a parent that is disabled, they're disabled like taxonomy here. 132 00:18:39.470 --> 00:18:42.159 Ofer Shaal: and move it out of its parent. 133 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:42.990 benji: Oh! 134 00:18:43.550 --> 00:18:45.169 Ofer Shaal: It's not under one. 135 00:18:46.840 --> 00:18:50.479 Ofer Shaal: just, I guess, just to see that it's behaving as we're expecting. 136 00:18:51.490 --> 00:18:53.189 benji: Okay. So when I 137 00:18:53.890 --> 00:18:58.600 benji: move it, it still says, disabled by paired. But it's also highlighted because 138 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:00.620 benji: it hasn't been changed. 139 00:19:02.050 --> 00:19:03.849 benji: And then, when I save 140 00:19:09.560 --> 00:19:11.040 benji: it is enabled 141 00:19:14.210 --> 00:19:14.840 Ofer Shaal: And it. 142 00:19:15.340 --> 00:19:16.219 benji: Go ahead. Yeah. 143 00:19:16.220 --> 00:19:19.840 Ofer Shaal: I wanna bring another suggestion. Because I think now with this new 144 00:19:19.870 --> 00:19:21.310 Ofer Shaal: 3 words. 145 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:23.649 Ofer Shaal: perhaps we should create. If it's 146 00:19:23.970 --> 00:19:26.999 Ofer Shaal: it becomes very overwhelming. The amount of text there 147 00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:28.230 Ofer Shaal: in in 148 00:19:28.780 --> 00:19:35.650 Ofer Shaal: what if there was? And maybe that's helping what Ralph was mentioning before? If we had another column, one column of 149 00:19:36.550 --> 00:19:39.860 Ofer Shaal: what the user want it to be. And the second column is. 150 00:19:40.350 --> 00:19:43.040 Ofer Shaal: how does it behave? Or something, whether it's because 151 00:19:43.120 --> 00:19:49.599 Ofer Shaal: repeating disabled parent for each one, for like a whole tree that's being disabled gonna be very overwhelming. 152 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:52.379 Ofer Shaal: And you know, it's like this. 153 00:19:52.530 --> 00:19:53.950 Ofer Shaal: it's a great example. Here. 154 00:19:55.330 --> 00:19:57.210 Ofer Shaal: you you yeah, you 155 00:19:57.760 --> 00:19:58.779 Ofer Shaal: that's my name. 156 00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:04.759 benji: Yeah. So I I guess 157 00:20:05.360 --> 00:20:09.589 benji: you bring up great question about what happens when you move something around 158 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:14.530 benji: should it update immediately, or only when it gets saved. 159 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:17.740 benji: And and yeah. 160 00:20:18.110 --> 00:20:20.340 benji: I guess the other question is. 161 00:20:20.840 --> 00:20:27.459 benji: how might we improve this? Would it be better to have all this information in a separate column rather than 162 00:20:28.468 --> 00:20:31.180 benji: adding the same label over and over again. 163 00:20:32.030 --> 00:20:37.120 benji: And Scott has joined us, too, since the last time I checked. Go ahead, Scott. 164 00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:43.239 skaught: So. Yes, it should definitely update the label as soon as it's moved. If it becomes active, it should be updated 165 00:20:43.760 --> 00:20:51.009 skaught: and the other way to do it, of course, would be to the actual enabled checkbox that should be disabled. Wait, you know. 166 00:20:52.020 --> 00:20:53.550 skaught: That means you can't disable it 167 00:20:54.100 --> 00:21:02.930 skaught: if the checkbox is disabled by the parent, then the item would be disabled because you wouldn't be able to change it right. The actual checkbox should change. 168 00:21:04.627 --> 00:21:12.169 benji: Yeah, I I think that the way currently works is correct, that this this checkbox is still enabled, and 169 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:17.080 benji: whether or not the parent is enabled, you still have the choice for the child elements. 170 00:21:17.980 --> 00:21:19.790 skaught: Yeah, I see. I see that, too. 171 00:21:22.840 --> 00:21:24.452 benji: Okay? So you 172 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:27.909 benji: you would like to improve 173 00:21:28.630 --> 00:21:30.330 benji: the the patch by 174 00:21:31.228 --> 00:21:34.820 benji: also changing whatever the indication is 175 00:21:34.910 --> 00:21:37.120 benji: when we move something around. 176 00:21:37.860 --> 00:21:44.909 skaught: Yeah, definitely the change. It's it's on screen. So people see it. And if it's a somebody's using a reader, then that'll be bad. Right? 177 00:21:46.330 --> 00:21:46.560 benji: It! 178 00:21:46.560 --> 00:21:47.100 skaught: Money. 179 00:21:47.100 --> 00:21:49.660 benji: Let me just check the current behavior when I 180 00:21:49.790 --> 00:21:52.080 benji: disable show row weights. 181 00:21:53.806 --> 00:21:55.399 benji: So now. 182 00:21:57.830 --> 00:22:01.770 benji: Oh, I was thinking of something else. This this only 183 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.669 benji: shows the row weights. It does not make the hierarchy 184 00:22:08.760 --> 00:22:14.389 benji: by by text box. The hierarchy is still just shown by by indentation. 185 00:22:18.069 --> 00:22:22.220 benji: Go ahead, Scott, or or do you just still have your hand raised. 186 00:22:24.810 --> 00:22:25.860 skaught: So I'll just write. Sorry. 187 00:22:25.860 --> 00:22:27.090 benji: Okay. See? Mo. 188 00:22:28.290 --> 00:22:30.947 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. One thing I think, 189 00:22:31.450 --> 00:22:32.710 Simo Hellsten: when we show it 190 00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:34.340 Simo Hellsten: disabled by parent 191 00:22:35.260 --> 00:22:37.140 Simo Hellsten: on the least. 192 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.410 Simo Hellsten: then I think it would make sense to have it. 193 00:22:41.326 --> 00:22:46.449 Simo Hellsten: The same same information also on the edit form which currently doesn't. 194 00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:52.090 benji: so let's have a look at that. 195 00:22:57.170 --> 00:22:58.200 benji: Okay. 196 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.013 benji: so we have this notice up here. 197 00:23:07.930 --> 00:23:09.180 benji: that this is. 198 00:23:10.370 --> 00:23:11.640 benji: Oh, yeah. Then 199 00:23:12.010 --> 00:23:15.307 benji: then yealinks are more complicated than they look. 200 00:23:16.370 --> 00:23:17.780 benji: and this is. 201 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.500 benji: you can't change the title. 202 00:23:21.350 --> 00:23:25.050 benji: and you can't change the path, but 203 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.879 benji: you can enable it or disable it. 204 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:35.690 Simo Hellsten: And it's also not included not even in the parent links description. 205 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:38.339 Simo Hellsten: So that's kind of minimum. 206 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.599 Simo Hellsten: It could be mentioned at least at the help desk. 207 00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:45.469 Simo Hellsten: that if it's if the parent link is disabled. 208 00:23:45.510 --> 00:23:49.270 Simo Hellsten: but it's not even there. But it would be nice to have it somewhere 209 00:23:49.670 --> 00:23:50.690 Simo Hellsten: shown 210 00:23:51.050 --> 00:23:53.890 Simo Hellsten: close to that enablement link, check box. 211 00:23:53.890 --> 00:24:01.220 benji: So this does show that the parent link is disabled, although I think if I look at something more deeply nested. 212 00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:10.111 benji: so it's, for example, 213 00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:16.759 benji: Suppose I were to re-enable display modes 214 00:24:19.760 --> 00:24:21.260 benji: save that? 215 00:24:22.600 --> 00:24:26.290 benji: And then, if I were to edit few modes. 216 00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:32.010 benji: so the parent is 217 00:24:32.930 --> 00:24:36.409 benji: enabled, but the grandparent is disabled. 218 00:24:38.350 --> 00:24:43.220 benji: Can can you see the the options when I click on this? Or does zoom not get that? 219 00:24:44.170 --> 00:24:44.440 benji: Yeah. 220 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:45.170 Simo Hellsten: See it. 221 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:46.500 benji: Okay, okay, good. 222 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.090 benji: So 223 00:24:52.100 --> 00:24:56.319 benji: yeah. So I think you're you're right, Simo, would. It would be good to 224 00:24:56.630 --> 00:24:58.939 benji: add the information here? 225 00:24:59.581 --> 00:25:02.389 benji: And and were you suggesting that it be 226 00:25:02.430 --> 00:25:03.780 benji: added to the 227 00:25:03.870 --> 00:25:05.190 benji: help text here. 228 00:25:10.297 --> 00:25:12.520 Simo Hellsten: Then at least, it would be close to them. 229 00:25:12.590 --> 00:25:14.460 Simo Hellsten: Option that doesn't 230 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.399 Simo Hellsten: change, because so that it would be somewhere close to that 231 00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:22.850 Simo Hellsten: check box that doesn't change anything. If the parent is 232 00:25:23.710 --> 00:25:25.710 Simo Hellsten: disabled, so it 233 00:25:25.950 --> 00:25:26.800 Simo Hellsten: to kind of 234 00:25:28.780 --> 00:25:30.740 Simo Hellsten: it could be more prominent 235 00:25:31.350 --> 00:25:32.320 Simo Hellsten: than that. 236 00:25:33.842 --> 00:25:35.410 Simo Hellsten: Help text! But 237 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:43.859 Simo Hellsten: I say, Swed, if it's in the help that seats somewhere, that's kind of something we have already, and then it 238 00:25:44.010 --> 00:25:46.490 Simo Hellsten: has its calls to that checkbooks. 239 00:25:48.520 --> 00:25:52.581 benji: Right. I I can't think of any other place to put it 240 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.216 benji: possibly under parent link. 241 00:26:03.650 --> 00:26:05.649 benji: Well, maybe that's not a bad idea. 242 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:14.700 benji: I guess my my 1st thought is is to put it here. 243 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.810 benji: yeah, close to the enable menu like checkbox. But 244 00:26:18.990 --> 00:26:24.890 benji: since it is related to the parent and grandparent links. This is another place, we might put it. 245 00:26:25.770 --> 00:26:26.420 benji: And 246 00:26:27.150 --> 00:26:31.020 benji: Ralph, do you just wanna ask, make your comment yourself, or shall I read it? 247 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:35.920 Ralf Koller: I can quickly do. Was I not sure if it already mentioned? But I think 248 00:26:36.190 --> 00:26:37.389 Ralf Koller: in the list of 249 00:26:37.899 --> 00:26:40.859 Ralf Koller: parental in the select field for the parent link 250 00:26:41.284 --> 00:26:44.189 Ralf Koller: at the moment only the actual disabled 251 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:47.840 Ralf Koller: parents are labeled as disabled, but shouldn't be 252 00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:53.119 Ralf Koller: disabled by parent menu. Items also be labeled cause. 253 00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:56.150 Ralf Koller: That is also relevant information in case someone 254 00:26:56.290 --> 00:26:59.859 Ralf Koller: wants to move it. For example, as a submenu item of 255 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:03.360 Ralf Koller: one menu item that's currently disabled by parent. 256 00:27:07.370 --> 00:27:11.610 benji: Okay. So if if we were to add the same text disabled by parent 257 00:27:14.230 --> 00:27:15.610 benji: that would 258 00:27:15.690 --> 00:27:23.240 benji: help people who who want to change the parent link, it would also have the the advantage that when this 259 00:27:23.590 --> 00:27:26.070 benji: edit page 1st loads, we would 260 00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:30.930 benji: have a visual indication right here in this select list. 261 00:27:31.050 --> 00:27:34.099 benji: it would say, display modes disabled by parent 262 00:27:34.886 --> 00:27:40.099 benji: and that would be an indication that whether or not you enable it, it's it's not going to be in the menu. 263 00:27:41.250 --> 00:27:43.719 Ralf Koller: But the only downside I see is basically 264 00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:53.600 Ralf Koller: with your example, right now, having the structure menu item disabled and all the sub menu items, then 265 00:27:54.290 --> 00:28:01.550 Ralf Koller: you get more or less a wall of text. All those dashes, then the menu item label, and then the disabled or the disabled by 266 00:28:03.770 --> 00:28:11.710 Ralf Koller: parent is a lot of text and a lot of redundant text, also because so that's downside. But still it would be, yeah. 267 00:28:12.250 --> 00:28:13.400 Ralf Koller: More explicit. 268 00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:15.090 benji: That's right. It's the same 269 00:28:15.917 --> 00:28:17.272 benji: problem of 270 00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:27.510 benji: no too much noise that we have here. In a sense it would be worse here because that select list is already problematic. 271 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:29.752 benji: On the other hand, 272 00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:37.739 benji: you know, if you're not opening this select list, then then you'd see it only once. So 273 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:42.409 benji: in some ways it's better in some ways it's worse. 274 00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:43.390 benji: Yep. 275 00:28:53.130 --> 00:28:56.770 Simo Hellsten: I think it would be nice to be able, if we could have some kind of a 276 00:28:58.060 --> 00:29:01.670 Simo Hellsten: of visuality with visualization for those 277 00:29:02.630 --> 00:29:06.479 Simo Hellsten: that are disabled, those branches that are disabled. So 278 00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:11.549 Simo Hellsten: it's a bit hard to come by something that's usable for everyone but 279 00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:15.509 Simo Hellsten: some kind of background, or some something like that 280 00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:18.919 Simo Hellsten: kind of just marking visually that whole 281 00:29:19.580 --> 00:29:21.699 Simo Hellsten: section that is disabled. 282 00:29:26.170 --> 00:29:29.409 Simo Hellsten: But that's that's a kind of design thing. 283 00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:33.420 benji: So 284 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:39.790 benji: what? What one option that i i i don't actually recommend. But it's it's it's just a thought 285 00:29:40.386 --> 00:29:44.043 benji: is that we could make use of these dashes. 286 00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:50.159 benji: and you use an x rather than than a dash for whichever 287 00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:53.840 benji: parent item is disabled 288 00:29:54.190 --> 00:30:01.069 benji: that would have the virtue of not taking up any more room. It would display the information, but it would be sort of cryptic. 289 00:30:14.890 --> 00:30:18.789 benji: I guess we have 2 dashes per level of indent. So 290 00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:28.499 benji: if structure is disabled, we could make it dash, dash Xx, and then block layout could be dash, dash, Xx. Dash, dash! 291 00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:34.859 benji: Go ahead, Ralph. 292 00:30:37.330 --> 00:30:41.700 Ralf Koller: talking about the those dashes and the indentation? Haven't we had 293 00:30:42.340 --> 00:30:43.750 Ralf Koller: an issue 294 00:30:44.690 --> 00:30:46.140 Ralf Koller: dealing with that 295 00:30:46.370 --> 00:30:49.240 Ralf Koller: particular problem a few months ago? 296 00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:52.320 Simo Hellsten: At least. 297 00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:53.090 Ralf Koller: Searching. 298 00:30:53.760 --> 00:30:55.676 Simo Hellsten: At least we had one 299 00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:58.891 Simo Hellsten: the on the ending day of 300 00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:07.620 Simo Hellsten: drop off on Prague, because I remember talking about those that kind of those kind of markings while I was waiting at the airport. 301 00:31:08.580 --> 00:31:10.760 Simo Hellsten: So we have had before at least 302 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:13.450 Simo Hellsten: kind of a year and a half ago. 303 00:31:14.360 --> 00:31:14.950 Ralf Koller: Up. 304 00:31:16.300 --> 00:31:18.059 benji: Yes, there, there is a long 305 00:31:18.080 --> 00:31:21.210 benji: standing issue to do something about 306 00:31:21.980 --> 00:31:23.330 benji: this list. 307 00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:25.660 benji: I 308 00:31:25.710 --> 00:31:28.810 benji: I had forgotten that we had 2 dashes per 309 00:31:29.010 --> 00:31:33.880 benji: level of intense, and I I wonder if if that has changed in the last year or 2. 310 00:31:44.520 --> 00:31:45.880 benji: So 311 00:31:47.320 --> 00:31:48.610 benji: sort of the 312 00:31:48.850 --> 00:31:51.670 benji: simplest change would be to 313 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.270 benji: add the disabled by parent message 314 00:31:56.350 --> 00:31:58.169 benji: to this, select less than that 315 00:31:58.670 --> 00:32:01.899 benji: has advantages and disadvantages. As we've discussed. 316 00:32:02.796 --> 00:32:05.260 benji: Simplicity is another advantage 317 00:32:05.420 --> 00:32:07.750 benji: that would make it consistent with this 318 00:32:11.040 --> 00:32:12.090 benji: If we've 319 00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:13.270 benji: think that 320 00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:15.430 benji: instead of 321 00:32:16.850 --> 00:32:19.570 benji: adding it here, it should be 322 00:32:21.850 --> 00:32:23.630 benji: a separate column. 323 00:32:23.790 --> 00:32:27.219 benji: and maybe I'll I'll go back to hiding the row weights. 324 00:32:33.280 --> 00:32:39.809 benji: so that would presumably not be a checkbox. It wouldn't be any sort of form element. It would just be 325 00:32:42.030 --> 00:32:44.030 benji: and an information column. 326 00:32:56.540 --> 00:32:58.020 benji: maybe 327 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:05.489 benji: maybe between the checkbox and the operations a column label visible. 328 00:33:06.070 --> 00:33:09.900 benji: and that would only be checked if 329 00:33:10.550 --> 00:33:13.890 benji: the menu item and all of its parents. 330 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:16.670 benji: We're checked. Does does that sound like 331 00:33:17.110 --> 00:33:19.449 benji: a reasonable way to present the information? 332 00:33:24.490 --> 00:33:26.459 benji: I get a thumbs up from Scott. 333 00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:27.320 Simo Hellsten: Oh. 334 00:33:27.550 --> 00:33:30.420 Simo Hellsten: if it's if the label is visible. 335 00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:34.110 Simo Hellsten: does that mean? If you know the direct link. 336 00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:35.629 Simo Hellsten: you can access it? 337 00:33:38.590 --> 00:33:41.630 Simo Hellsten: If the parent is so it's that disabled. 338 00:33:41.970 --> 00:33:44.150 Simo Hellsten: or is it hidden from the menu? 339 00:33:44.570 --> 00:33:47.510 Simo Hellsten: So is it. Is the the 340 00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:50.859 Simo Hellsten: Is the road disabled, or is the 341 00:33:51.270 --> 00:33:53.850 Simo Hellsten: wrote just not in the menu. 342 00:33:54.778 --> 00:33:57.082 benji: It it. It's just not in the menu. 343 00:33:57.370 --> 00:34:01.700 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. So I think, then then that kind of app that disabled 344 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:06.450 Simo Hellsten: can be sometimes misleading. 345 00:34:10.909 --> 00:34:15.179 benji: So you think that just the the existing 346 00:34:15.319 --> 00:34:18.279 benji: column label is is misleading because 347 00:34:18.369 --> 00:34:24.639 benji: it's not clear that it's the menu item rather than the the link itself, or the page itself 348 00:34:26.789 --> 00:34:29.169 benji: that's enabled or disabled. Is that what you're saying? 349 00:34:30.156 --> 00:34:31.109 Simo Hellsten: Ye. Yeah. 350 00:34:31.459 --> 00:34:33.039 Simo Hellsten: So I think. 351 00:34:43.109 --> 00:34:48.029 Simo Hellsten: yeah, be. That's something, because I'm so used to that. So it's I don't have a 352 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:50.039 Simo Hellsten: clear. 353 00:34:51.259 --> 00:34:54.189 Simo Hellsten: I I don't know if it's misleading or not, because 354 00:34:54.529 --> 00:34:56.579 Simo Hellsten: I know that there is difference. 355 00:34:57.059 --> 00:34:59.359 Simo Hellsten: and for someone who doesn't know 356 00:35:02.359 --> 00:35:04.647 Simo Hellsten: no, that is, is 357 00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:10.399 Simo Hellsten: If it's not enabled, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's kind of a 358 00:35:11.429 --> 00:35:12.259 Simo Hellsten: doesn't. 359 00:35:18.429 --> 00:35:20.139 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, I think this is a 360 00:35:21.244 --> 00:35:24.079 Simo Hellsten: pause a bit into the groupallism section 361 00:35:25.358 --> 00:35:31.029 Simo Hellsten: having that links and that like especially when we're looking at looking at the 362 00:35:31.249 --> 00:35:32.449 Simo Hellsten: links that are 363 00:35:33.147 --> 00:35:37.049 Simo Hellsten: by here defined by the system. 364 00:35:37.509 --> 00:35:39.849 Simo Hellsten: and not manually added. 365 00:35:44.310 --> 00:35:47.589 benji: Yeah, that's that's related to what I said at the beginning about how 366 00:35:47.850 --> 00:35:50.860 benji: menu links are more complicated than they appear. 367 00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:56.220 benji: so I think everything on. On this menu 368 00:35:56.520 --> 00:36:00.730 benji: is provided by by the system. 369 00:36:01.430 --> 00:36:03.169 benji: They can all be 370 00:36:03.620 --> 00:36:04.820 benji: edited. 371 00:36:06.180 --> 00:36:09.679 benji: You can add children, and they have that reset option 372 00:36:10.460 --> 00:36:12.719 benji: as opposed to 373 00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:21.339 benji: something like the the main navigation menu. All of these are 374 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:26.310 benji: things that are added. They can be edited or deleted. 375 00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:27.990 benji: Oh, they can't. 376 00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:31.190 benji: Oh, that's 377 00:36:33.190 --> 00:36:34.649 benji: well, that's a bug. 378 00:36:36.200 --> 00:36:37.340 benji: Odd. 379 00:36:37.520 --> 00:36:40.010 benji: The the lease is in the wrong font. 380 00:36:45.170 --> 00:36:48.949 benji: but art articles and recipes these these are 381 00:36:49.410 --> 00:36:52.050 benji: menu items that can can be 382 00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:54.249 benji: created or deleted. 383 00:36:54.490 --> 00:36:56.880 benji: They're not provided by system in the same way. 384 00:36:57.273 --> 00:37:01.979 benji: And Ralph found the issue he was talking about. Yes, we all remember this one. 385 00:37:06.500 --> 00:37:07.680 benji: it is 386 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:11.210 benji: issue 2, 3, 8, 4, 2 0, 3 387 00:37:11.944 --> 00:37:15.569 benji: improve indentation in hierarchical select lists. 388 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:17.390 benji: And 389 00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:21.040 benji: maybe I'll just open the screenshot briefly. 390 00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:26.820 benji: Shows various suggestions for 391 00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:32.399 benji: how to indicate the indentation rather than what we currently have. 392 00:37:37.300 --> 00:37:39.949 benji: Oh, and this before screenshot. 393 00:37:40.770 --> 00:37:43.160 benji: yeah, confirms what I was asking. 394 00:37:45.520 --> 00:37:51.870 benji: So when this screenshot was taken there was only one hyphen per level of indentation. So that has changed. 395 00:37:53.081 --> 00:37:55.140 benji: I thought so, but I 396 00:37:55.630 --> 00:37:57.780 benji: I think the screenshot confirms that. 397 00:37:59.420 --> 00:38:00.806 benji: But anyway, 398 00:38:01.990 --> 00:38:04.539 benji: back to the issue at hand, shall we 399 00:38:06.810 --> 00:38:09.650 benji: make a firm recommendation that 400 00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:14.859 benji: instead of having this repetitive disabled by parent disabled by parent. 401 00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:17.500 benji: Again. 402 00:38:17.520 --> 00:38:22.330 benji: it is most useful in the case where there are a lot of them. 403 00:38:23.266 --> 00:38:29.789 benji: Because that's when you scroll off and you don't see the parents anymore. It scrolled off top of the screen. 404 00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:35.190 benji: It's most useful when there are a lot of them, but when there are a lot of them it's a lot of visual noise. 405 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:44.349 benji: so do we want to make a firm recommendation that instead of adding all of that, we add new column to the table. 406 00:38:52.970 --> 00:38:55.010 benji: I get a thumbs up from Scott. 407 00:39:00.850 --> 00:39:02.170 benji: Alright. I can't. 408 00:39:02.630 --> 00:39:09.679 benji: Does. Does anyone prefer the way it currently works, and think that having a separate column is a bad idea. Go ahead, Ralph. 409 00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:21.009 Ralf Koller: Could you? Just repeat what the second checkbox column would be for cause? I think I've missed it. While I was searching, and was distracted. 410 00:39:22.251 --> 00:39:23.860 benji: So it would just be 411 00:39:24.490 --> 00:39:31.239 benji: putting this same information in a separate column rather than adding it to the label. 412 00:39:32.730 --> 00:39:33.960 benji: So 413 00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:37.310 benji: we're not sure how to do it. 414 00:39:37.580 --> 00:39:43.939 benji: The one suggestion I made was between these 2 columns, enabled in operations 415 00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:47.030 benji: to have another column called Visible 416 00:39:47.728 --> 00:39:51.909 benji: it would not be a form element. It would just be an information column. 417 00:39:52.470 --> 00:39:55.569 benji: and it would be a check mark 418 00:39:55.980 --> 00:39:57.160 benji: apps if 419 00:39:57.680 --> 00:40:01.149 benji: if the element is enabled, and all of its parents are enabled. 420 00:40:01.470 --> 00:40:05.320 benji: and otherwise it would be an X or or something. 421 00:40:05.500 --> 00:40:06.589 benji: So go ahead. 422 00:40:07.690 --> 00:40:08.830 Ralf Koller: Just one 423 00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:15.789 Ralf Koller: thought in one comment, a plus one. Then, for your suggestion in regards of that extra column. 424 00:40:16.422 --> 00:40:21.749 Ralf Koller: But one additional thought something Semo raised in regards of 425 00:40:23.210 --> 00:40:35.349 Ralf Koller: signify disabled columns, maybe, even though it isn't completely accessible because we shouldn't rely solely on color. But 426 00:40:36.020 --> 00:40:39.729 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure on which issue it was but one. Scott 427 00:40:39.770 --> 00:40:42.320 Ralf Koller: worked on where it was 428 00:40:43.890 --> 00:40:47.899 Ralf Koller: something about disabled use. I guess it was, and 429 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:48.819 Ralf Koller: there 430 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.739 Ralf Koller: Some pink background was used, so maybe it might be 431 00:40:53.750 --> 00:41:01.649 Ralf Koller: some visual cue for at least cited users to quickly figure out which of the rows are disabled. 432 00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:09.409 Ralf Koller: The actual disabled as well as the disabled by parent, and which are actually active and enabled. 433 00:41:10.270 --> 00:41:12.560 Ralf Koller: as an additional help. 434 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:19.039 benji: Okay. So for example, actually, that's 435 00:41:20.220 --> 00:41:23.280 benji: not easy to give an example of, go ahead, Thomas. 436 00:41:26.660 --> 00:41:35.060 Thomas Howell: I'm not sure I like the idea of the separate column, but I'm not sure I like the idea of it being a check or check box or anything like that. 437 00:41:35.290 --> 00:41:38.720 Thomas Howell: because just for myself. 438 00:41:39.148 --> 00:41:47.699 Thomas Howell: historically, if there's something that looks like a check and I can't undo it. That drives me crazy, and I think that something's wrong or broken. 439 00:41:49.270 --> 00:41:55.510 Thomas Howell: I think the column makes sense, but I would go with something other than something that looks actionable. 440 00:41:56.720 --> 00:42:00.049 benji: Perhaps yes or no, rather than a check or an X. 441 00:42:00.050 --> 00:42:11.790 Thomas Howell: Yes, no, it that would be great if we wanted more information like, whether like because we have those 2 states, we have both disabled and disabled because of the parent. 442 00:42:12.650 --> 00:42:29.320 Thomas Howell: If we're getting rid of that much information, maybe we want something that allows us to differentiate between whether or not. It's not visible because it is disabled, but we can infer that from the enabled check being missing. So yes, no would be fine. 443 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:33.419 Thomas Howell: or maybe we consider other things, but something that's definitely not actionable. 444 00:42:33.970 --> 00:42:35.150 benji: Okay. Good point. 445 00:42:36.331 --> 00:42:39.619 benji: Also in the chat. Seema says background pattern 446 00:42:39.700 --> 00:42:42.909 benji: makes it harder to read, but has some benefits. 447 00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:44.910 benji: Slash, slash, slash pattern. 448 00:42:47.060 --> 00:42:48.269 benji: Scott! Go ahead. 449 00:42:49.598 --> 00:42:57.610 skaught: The label like the label for the new column would be more direct, like, disabled inherited right? Just disabled by inherited. 450 00:42:59.580 --> 00:43:07.899 skaught: directly disabled. Or, yeah, I'm just trying to think of how to shorten the title or to have something more like a switch, a visually disabled switch. So right 451 00:43:08.290 --> 00:43:09.820 skaught: talking about yes and no 452 00:43:09.890 --> 00:43:12.049 skaught: how to show it as a yes or no, we're on off. 453 00:43:12.310 --> 00:43:13.910 skaught: and if it's the inherited. 454 00:43:15.410 --> 00:43:17.010 skaught: just to shorten the phrase. 455 00:43:20.025 --> 00:43:22.299 benji: I think just inherited doesn't 456 00:43:22.350 --> 00:43:23.730 benji: make the meaning 457 00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:25.220 benji: clear enough. 458 00:43:25.220 --> 00:43:25.800 skaught: Okay. 459 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:26.550 benji: I 460 00:43:26.780 --> 00:43:30.339 benji: I think the combination of yep 461 00:43:30.790 --> 00:43:35.475 benji: having the the simple yes or no, plus the information in the enabled column. 462 00:43:38.650 --> 00:43:47.710 benji: is reasonably clear. I mean, I guess that's that's a matter of opinion. But but it certainly has all the information you need. 463 00:43:49.346 --> 00:43:51.693 benji: Ralph replies about the 464 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:54.409 benji: The readability of the background. 465 00:43:54.590 --> 00:44:02.690 benji: he says, but for the pink background example, the color contrast was still more than 4.5 to one for the text color against the background. 466 00:44:03.703 --> 00:44:06.826 benji: So I'm not sure if it would be harder to read. 467 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:08.760 benji: And then 468 00:44:09.650 --> 00:44:16.799 benji: Simo comments, at least technically, make the info available as classes for the theme Css to use. 469 00:44:18.370 --> 00:44:21.430 benji: Okay? So you know, let let the 470 00:44:21.740 --> 00:44:23.670 benji: Admin team decide 471 00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:28.428 benji: whether to use it. But it's certainly 472 00:44:29.120 --> 00:44:30.489 benji: does no harm 473 00:44:30.590 --> 00:44:39.450 benji: to add a class to the row, so that the the Admin theme can decide whether or not to do it. I think that's a that's a good suggestion, too. 474 00:44:50.710 --> 00:44:54.290 benji: so are we coming around to consensus on 475 00:44:54.805 --> 00:44:57.169 benji: on the separate column, as I described it. 476 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:03.299 benji: get a thumbs up from Ralph and Thomas and Scott 477 00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:07.000 benji: Sima dot. 478 00:45:07.310 --> 00:45:09.729 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, I'm a little bit worried that 479 00:45:10.350 --> 00:45:12.210 Simo Hellsten: it adds. 480 00:45:13.473 --> 00:45:18.080 Simo Hellsten: too much information. So it's kind of also making it less usable 481 00:45:19.720 --> 00:45:21.519 Simo Hellsten: when it's a 482 00:45:23.220 --> 00:45:33.349 Simo Hellsten: when the like. When the menu is not using that. So it's kind of adding more information. So it makes the current options less usable because there is more. 483 00:45:34.020 --> 00:45:35.520 Simo Hellsten: But maybe 484 00:45:38.450 --> 00:45:39.400 Simo Hellsten: yeah. 485 00:45:40.650 --> 00:45:43.679 Simo Hellsten: But that's the information that needs to be there somehow. 486 00:45:45.060 --> 00:45:55.340 benji: Well, it's it's adding the same information. And and I I think it. It's doing it in a more compact form than what we're looking at now. 487 00:45:57.620 --> 00:46:04.260 benji: I guess the difference is all all these things that are not disabled by the parent. It's it's adding an extra. 488 00:46:04.750 --> 00:46:05.910 benji: Yes. 489 00:46:06.490 --> 00:46:12.039 benji: here. So in that sense it's adding more visual visual noise. Go ahead, Thomas. 490 00:46:13.502 --> 00:46:20.209 Thomas Howell: Historically, I don't think I've ever had a site where I didn't have at least one thing disabled. 491 00:46:20.220 --> 00:46:28.469 Thomas Howell: and the fact that it's called out in a separate column in theory, can make it more findable for me. 492 00:46:28.889 --> 00:46:41.419 Thomas Howell: So I guess i i i disagree with Simo about it being added noise, because I've just. I've not seen many sites where for some period of time I didn't have to disable at least one menu. Item. 493 00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:45.860 benji: Okay. 494 00:46:47.339 --> 00:46:49.789 benji: And Aaron has just joined us. Welcome! 495 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.120 benji: Go ahead, Ralph. 496 00:46:52.990 --> 00:46:54.869 Ralf Koller: And also one 497 00:46:55.050 --> 00:46:56.320 Ralf Koller: another. 498 00:46:56.856 --> 00:47:01.500 Ralf Koller: Argument pro. The extra column is at the moment 499 00:47:02.040 --> 00:47:03.099 Ralf Koller: having that 500 00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:18.799 Ralf Koller: disabled and disabled the parent within the menu link column added to the actual manual link label. You're mixing basically the title with the state information. And by moving that to a separate column 501 00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:20.499 Ralf Koller: you have a click column 502 00:47:21.060 --> 00:47:30.240 Ralf Koller: explicitly and clearly just about the State, while the manual link is clearly just about the hierarchy position and the label itself. So 503 00:47:31.750 --> 00:47:34.040 Ralf Koller: I consider that more clear. 504 00:47:36.250 --> 00:47:39.540 benji: Okay, there's separation of concerns that the information 505 00:47:40.220 --> 00:47:41.250 benji: isn't 506 00:47:41.540 --> 00:47:45.529 benji: added to the link, and you get a thumbs up from Thomas. There. 507 00:47:48.410 --> 00:47:49.110 Simo Hellsten: Yep. 508 00:47:49.710 --> 00:47:50.720 Simo Hellsten: and so 509 00:47:51.050 --> 00:47:56.080 Simo Hellsten: do we have. If it's a separate column, do we have possibilities to somehow 510 00:47:56.630 --> 00:47:59.010 Simo Hellsten: connect that checkbox? 511 00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:00.569 Simo Hellsten: That 512 00:48:00.670 --> 00:48:09.280 Simo Hellsten: information only column, so that because the checkbook also books is also information. But it's kind of a contradicted by the other column. 513 00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:14.969 Simo Hellsten: So somehow just have that that kind of convenience status somehow. 514 00:48:19.633 --> 00:48:23.177 benji: So I I think the the suggestion is 515 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:25.430 benji: that 516 00:48:26.030 --> 00:48:30.819 benji: we would say yes in the new column only if the 517 00:48:31.120 --> 00:48:35.719 benji: menu item itself were enabled, and all of its parents were enabled. 518 00:48:36.640 --> 00:48:41.569 benji: So in in a sense, it is combining that information already. 519 00:48:44.258 --> 00:48:45.949 benji: Does that answer your question? 520 00:48:47.190 --> 00:48:48.220 Simo Hellsten: And I will 521 00:48:48.817 --> 00:48:55.440 Simo Hellsten: looking at put placing the new column between. Oh, after enabled so that it's kind of that 522 00:48:56.820 --> 00:48:58.910 Simo Hellsten: that like that fine off. 523 00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:02.260 Simo Hellsten: say on, if it's if you can see it or not. 524 00:49:02.910 --> 00:49:04.630 Simo Hellsten: So it would, I think 525 00:49:05.720 --> 00:49:07.490 Simo Hellsten: next there. 526 00:49:09.390 --> 00:49:14.480 benji: Yeah, that's I think that's what I suggested putting it in between the existing columns. So after enabled 527 00:49:24.060 --> 00:49:32.610 benji: and Aaron just briefly to get you. Oh, is Aaron? Yes, Aaron, still here, just briefly to get you caught up. We're discussing an issue 528 00:49:32.780 --> 00:49:35.950 benji: where, if you disable 529 00:49:36.922 --> 00:49:45.180 benji: a menu, then you add information to all of its children, indicating that they're disabled by their parent being disabled? 530 00:49:49.818 --> 00:49:52.370 benji: So now let's go back to the question. 531 00:49:53.230 --> 00:49:55.340 benji: Here. 532 00:49:57.340 --> 00:49:58.560 benji: F. 533 00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:07.320 benji: How are we going to present that information on the edit page for an individual item? 534 00:50:07.630 --> 00:50:10.710 benji: So I guess we could go back 535 00:50:11.550 --> 00:50:15.400 benji: to putting the information here in the help text. 536 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:20.380 benji: and I wonder if 537 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:24.850 benji: there is. 538 00:50:25.180 --> 00:50:27.900 benji: Anyway, if we're not going to be. 539 00:50:29.750 --> 00:50:36.699 benji: let's say if if we're not going to be saying, disabled by parent on this page, then we probably shouldn't 540 00:50:38.570 --> 00:50:42.079 benji: add all of that text in the select list. 541 00:50:45.430 --> 00:50:48.430 benji: should we change anything 542 00:50:48.740 --> 00:50:52.369 benji: in this area for the parent link to indicate that 543 00:50:52.710 --> 00:50:56.370 benji: the parent or one of the ancestor elements is disabled. 544 00:50:56.540 --> 00:50:59.460 benji: Or should we just add some information. 545 00:50:59.490 --> 00:51:01.999 benji: a second line of help. Text. Here. 546 00:51:05.380 --> 00:51:06.620 benji: go ahead, Ralph. 547 00:51:08.915 --> 00:51:09.980 Ralf Koller: Aaron was first.st 548 00:51:13.350 --> 00:51:17.419 Aaron McHale: Thanks. Sorry I was having audio issues. So I've just joined from my phone 549 00:51:18.100 --> 00:51:18.615 Aaron McHale: and 550 00:51:19.300 --> 00:51:21.700 Aaron McHale: basically, I was thinking, 551 00:51:23.310 --> 00:51:36.883 Aaron McHale: that I've had this idea for a while inspired by our 777 cms. Where it would display like in the menu tree. This is a very custom implementation, by the way, but it would display 552 00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:41.669 Aaron McHale: little badges next to May, each menu item, for instance, 553 00:51:42.160 --> 00:51:45.730 Aaron McHale: showing the States of the Content whether it was published or unpublished. 554 00:51:46.079 --> 00:52:03.429 Aaron McHale: You know whether it was whether it was a new draft, you know, and I wonder if this is an opportunity to sort of start to move towards a patchroom like that is the nice thing is they can also be. These badges can be kind of can be color coded, which can help with so scan ability. 555 00:52:03.905 --> 00:52:09.950 Aaron McHale: And it was, it's a system that our content editors really 556 00:52:10.120 --> 00:52:23.509 Aaron McHale: really liked. And so and so tests what tested well. So I wonder if it's pattern that we could maybe look at. I'm not saying we have to do on this issue. But if we keep in mind that that's maybe something that you know isn't a good idea. We could 557 00:52:24.132 --> 00:52:25.217 Aaron McHale: sort of 558 00:52:27.220 --> 00:52:31.180 Aaron McHale: move to a direction like that, I guess would be what I would suggest. 559 00:52:32.220 --> 00:52:32.950 benji: And okay. 560 00:52:39.570 --> 00:52:41.119 benji: So so now go ahead, Ralph. 561 00:52:42.770 --> 00:52:45.599 Ralf Koller: 1st to Aaron's point. 562 00:52:46.390 --> 00:52:55.209 Ralf Koller: I like the idea in case those batches are sort of also screen reader accessible. Communicating 563 00:52:55.930 --> 00:52:57.110 Ralf Koller: the meaning 564 00:52:57.810 --> 00:53:01.309 Ralf Koller: based on the form as well as on the color. 565 00:53:01.560 --> 00:53:02.630 Ralf Koller: And 566 00:53:03.150 --> 00:53:10.679 Ralf Koller: that would basically M. Could you move to the menu into the page of a menu. Item, please, Benji. 567 00:53:11.990 --> 00:53:12.679 Ralf Koller: at 568 00:53:12.730 --> 00:53:14.549 Ralf Koller: that would basically. Yeah. 569 00:53:15.350 --> 00:53:21.959 Ralf Koller: remove the need of those redundant, basically disabled or disabled by parent 570 00:53:24.100 --> 00:53:25.670 Ralf Koller: and in regards. 571 00:53:27.220 --> 00:53:28.830 Ralf Koller: if we are adding 572 00:53:29.070 --> 00:53:36.319 Ralf Koller: second column on that overview on the list page, I think, adding the information, if 573 00:53:36.913 --> 00:53:40.299 Ralf Koller: a menu link is visible or not. 574 00:53:40.420 --> 00:53:44.550 Ralf Koller: I wouldn't add to basically the description, but 575 00:53:44.870 --> 00:53:50.893 Ralf Koller: from a importance level, would it? Could you move, please back to the other page? Yeah. 576 00:53:52.100 --> 00:53:57.239 Ralf Koller: make it on an equal level to the like an enable menu link 577 00:53:59.190 --> 00:54:08.170 Ralf Koller: setting. So that, you see, is the menu link enabled or not. And then another point is that menu link, visible or not 578 00:54:09.070 --> 00:54:13.079 Ralf Koller: without the option to change anything there, but 579 00:54:13.290 --> 00:54:16.479 Ralf Koller: still, in the description it might be missed. 580 00:54:21.452 --> 00:54:23.260 benji: So you're you're suggesting. 581 00:54:24.175 --> 00:54:27.710 benji: that we we sort of add a 582 00:54:28.870 --> 00:54:33.380 benji: sort of an an information element, not not a not a form element. 583 00:54:34.428 --> 00:54:37.219 benji: on the same level as enable menu like. 584 00:54:45.270 --> 00:54:49.442 benji: And then there's the question of how much information to give there. 585 00:54:51.010 --> 00:54:56.630 benji: It might be something like visible yes or visible? No, because 586 00:54:56.840 --> 00:54:59.420 benji: the structure menu is disabled. 587 00:55:00.947 --> 00:55:02.499 benji: Aaron, go ahead. 588 00:55:05.500 --> 00:55:10.717 Aaron McHale: Thanks. Just a little bit more context there. So I was saying so 589 00:55:11.180 --> 00:55:21.899 Aaron McHale: the in in the the Cms. That we have, the badges are displayed next to the menu title. So next to the title of each menu item which 590 00:55:22.222 --> 00:55:45.609 Aaron McHale: and looking at that, looking at that screen so kind of like as it is there. But there is there's a bit more like or is vertical horizontal spacing. There's more spacing between, because they're badges. There's like just more more space between the name and the menu item. So like visually, they don't like in this, they're very close together, but visually, that doesn't happen in in our Cms, so we have that so badge style. 591 00:55:45.935 --> 00:55:56.490 Aaron McHale: I guess, from excusing that from the experience of it, like it, is it? I? I I do again. It may be just because I'm used to seeing that pattern, but I do quite like it, because 592 00:55:56.600 --> 00:56:01.700 Aaron McHale: I think, with menu items being indented. It's nice to be able to see 593 00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:05.439 Aaron McHale: the title and the status of that item 594 00:56:05.490 --> 00:56:14.280 Aaron McHale: close together rather than having to scan across the columns where which might work fine. I think that would work okay if they were all like. 595 00:56:15.040 --> 00:56:30.060 Aaron McHale: or you know all, all you know, not indented, basically like, you have a view of content. We have it in columns, and that's fine, because everything is nicely left aligned, whereas here it's the interface is a bit more, you know not. Everything is aligned 596 00:56:30.170 --> 00:56:38.512 Aaron McHale: the to the left in the same ways. But again, I may be biased because I'm just so used to seeing that kind of style with the badges, but 597 00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:44.679 Aaron McHale: from tet from when it was test in the past that seemed to work well, from what I understand, and 598 00:56:45.330 --> 00:56:49.019 Aaron McHale: users have enjoyed that that platform so. 599 00:56:49.190 --> 00:56:54.080 benji: Yeah, Aaron, Ralph asks, is the indentation level also communicated in the badge? 600 00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:58.384 benji: And and exactly where is the badges before or after the link. 601 00:56:58.700 --> 00:57:00.449 Aaron McHale: So it's after the link. 602 00:57:00.807 --> 00:57:12.942 Aaron McHale: Kind of like with the how is they're disabled by Pan. But obviously that text would be inside a badge, and it's there's slightly more space between the badge and the label or the title 603 00:57:13.660 --> 00:57:16.459 Aaron McHale: And to Ralph's question, 604 00:57:17.650 --> 00:57:19.400 Aaron McHale: is intentionally showable. 605 00:57:20.274 --> 00:57:21.059 Aaron McHale: I'm 606 00:57:21.730 --> 00:57:25.390 Aaron McHale: I don't think so. No, it's it's just 607 00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:29.089 Aaron McHale: so. The badges are just like whether there's a new draft. 608 00:57:29.270 --> 00:57:31.903 Aaron McHale: whether the content is published. 609 00:57:32.790 --> 00:57:35.459 Aaron McHale: but there. There can be more than one badge 610 00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:42.559 Aaron McHale: on the same for the same item, because content might be unpublished and might have a new draft, so you would get both of those badges. 611 00:57:46.220 --> 00:57:48.600 Aaron McHale: Not sure if that answers your question. 612 00:57:49.990 --> 00:57:53.410 benji: Yeah. And and just to to be clear, this, this information 613 00:57:53.570 --> 00:57:56.540 benji: is available in the menu 614 00:57:56.850 --> 00:58:00.430 benji: page as well as on the content page. This is 615 00:58:03.710 --> 00:58:07.190 benji: sort of where where I might more expect to have that 616 00:58:10.100 --> 00:58:11.240 benji: moderated content. 617 00:58:11.810 --> 00:58:12.530 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 618 00:58:13.070 --> 00:58:14.210 Aaron McHale: I didn't. 619 00:58:14.210 --> 00:58:16.389 benji: But you actually add it, add it here as well. 620 00:58:16.930 --> 00:58:42.380 Aaron McHale: Yeah, in our in in this Cms again, bear mind, this is a 777 cms, the the users only interact with content to the menu tree and everything is on the menu tree. So this is effectively like it's. It's an interesting idea, because users actually have to add content to the menu tree before they can even save a new, a new page. There's literally no way for them not to add content in the menu tree. 621 00:58:42.699 --> 00:58:53.879 Aaron McHale: But but that's that I'm not at all suggesting we. We go down that route because that only works. If your site is set up in the front end to support very deep menus, which 622 00:58:53.900 --> 00:58:59.970 Aaron McHale: you know we don't know what the front end of a site is like, so we can't suggest that. But 623 00:59:01.010 --> 00:59:08.430 Aaron McHale: ye yeah, I think if you have like, if you have this information, are you saying, Benji? You would want like the dislike, the disabled by parent. 624 00:59:09.080 --> 00:59:13.689 Aaron McHale: you would have also that also on the content view. Or 625 00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:15.290 Aaron McHale: is that not what you're saying? 626 00:59:15.625 --> 00:59:24.349 benji: No, I'm the the disabled by parent applies to the menu item. So that belongs on this page. But whether there's a new draft available. 627 00:59:24.790 --> 00:59:26.170 Aaron McHale: Oh, yeah, yeah. 628 00:59:26.390 --> 00:59:50.649 Aaron McHale: I I think it's good, like, I think in drupal. What we don't do is we? We don't. We tend to send people to the content, view a lot out of the box. And it's funny because I was just in the before I came here. I was just in the star shot presentation that was happening. So I was late here today, and it's it wasn't talked about there all. But but I do wonder if, like, if that pattern of if if we were to like focus. 629 00:59:50.770 --> 01:00:00.119 Aaron McHale: you know, make the menu tree. Let's say more prominent to users and make that the primary way that users like interact content. If that would be 630 01:00:00.990 --> 01:00:16.979 Aaron McHale: a more like if that would be a better way, because there is some kind of like if you. I suppose it depends. If your site is structured on a menu, though that's the problem like we don't like. We don't know what what sites are are structured around? So we have to provide options. But 631 01:00:16.980 --> 01:00:33.400 Aaron McHale: if if you are, if if your site is structured around the hierarchy of a menu. Then then this kind of view does make sense for content editors, because they can, because they understand that structure, and they understand where this page sits in the context which you don't have 632 01:00:33.450 --> 01:00:35.200 Aaron McHale: when you're looking at it in the. 633 01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:37.330 Aaron McHale: in, the, in the content view. 634 01:00:37.370 --> 01:00:40.059 Aaron McHale: you don't have that like hierarchy of context. 635 01:00:40.060 --> 01:00:48.009 benji: I think it's also a question of scale. If your page has, if your site has dozens of pages, and it all fits in in one new hierarchy that 636 01:00:48.100 --> 01:00:54.820 benji: that works well. But if it has thousands of pages they're not all going to be in the menu, and then you want to be able to filter and sort 637 01:00:55.448 --> 01:01:01.060 benji: we are getting close to the end of the hour, so let's try to wrap this up, and Thomas has been waiting to say something. 638 01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:07.059 Thomas Howell: I just wanted to point out that one of the challenges with what 639 01:01:07.570 --> 01:01:14.319 Thomas Howell: Aaron was describing is that there's not just one way to create the menu structure. 640 01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:22.189 Thomas Howell: And so, for instance, back in the day I had a strong interest in using vocabularies to organize 641 01:01:22.290 --> 01:01:23.340 Thomas Howell: content. 642 01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:27.854 Thomas Howell: and then using that to generate menus. And so 643 01:01:28.780 --> 01:01:33.809 Thomas Howell: I feel like we can't necessarily assume how the menu is created. 644 01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:37.769 Thomas Howell: and I don't know if we want to be so prescriptive. 645 01:01:39.060 --> 01:01:43.050 Thomas Howell: And I still feel pretty strongly about what 646 01:01:43.458 --> 01:02:11.111 Thomas Howell: Ralph brought up earlier about the separation of concerns like I having information next to the link. Seems to be a very awkward place. I'm huge into sorting and filtering, and I would eventually like to be able to filter by what's been disabled, or what's like, what's visible, what's not visible, even if that isn't part of this issue by continuing to keep it next to, or as part of the 647 01:02:11.910 --> 01:02:17.200 Thomas Howell: the like, the the links. It eliminates that. So 648 01:02:17.750 --> 01:02:20.599 Thomas Howell: just wanna put that out there. Thank you. 649 01:02:20.600 --> 01:02:23.800 benji: Okay, yeah, I don't think Aaron was suggesting that we 650 01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:26.548 benji: force people to use the menus 651 01:02:27.150 --> 01:02:29.560 benji: to look at their site content, but rather 652 01:02:30.205 --> 01:02:34.179 benji: think of it as as an an option that that we can provide. 653 01:02:34.680 --> 01:02:48.420 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I think it like, I said, I think it can. It can work if your site is structured hierarchically around the menu. But you know, as I said. And as you said, Thomas, like we don't, we? Basically we don't. We don't know. Drupal doesn't prescribe 654 01:02:48.580 --> 01:02:51.130 Aaron McHale: what, how you're gonna structure. Your site. 655 01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:54.170 benji: Okay, so wrap things up. 656 01:02:55.145 --> 01:02:57.940 benji: So I guess we're going to 657 01:02:58.060 --> 01:03:00.840 benji: make a recommendation, not just a suggestion 658 01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:06.189 benji: that instead of putting the label here that we add a separate column. 659 01:03:08.630 --> 01:03:13.669 benji: secondly, that we add a Css class, so that the 660 01:03:13.740 --> 01:03:14.760 benji: theme 661 01:03:15.060 --> 01:03:17.235 benji: has the option of 662 01:03:18.150 --> 01:03:20.920 benji: doing something additional, such as a pink background. 663 01:03:24.830 --> 01:03:30.950 benji: Oh! And and Scott mentions in the chat I've had project use book for their menu structure. 664 01:03:31.300 --> 01:03:32.160 benji: Yes. 665 01:03:34.040 --> 01:03:38.420 benji: so I think those are the only suggestions for this page 666 01:03:38.690 --> 01:03:41.047 benji: and then for the edit page. 667 01:03:44.140 --> 01:03:47.729 benji: to add and and information. 668 01:03:49.527 --> 01:03:54.899 benji: A a text element, not another form element, and we haven't really 669 01:03:55.380 --> 01:04:02.469 benji: settled on what to put there. So we can't make a firm recommendation about exactly what to say. But 670 01:04:03.780 --> 01:04:07.660 benji: but certainly some indication on this edit page 671 01:04:07.740 --> 01:04:10.400 benji: of the same information that we're adding to the tree. 672 01:04:11.468 --> 01:04:13.410 benji: Am I reading anything out? 673 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:25.989 benji: Okay, I I think I can do that unless someone else would like to 674 01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:27.520 benji: make the comment. 675 01:04:36.470 --> 01:04:37.255 benji: Okay, 676 01:04:38.430 --> 01:04:50.239 benji: we just have 1 min left. I'll I'll say again what I said at the beginning. Next week I'll be at a conference, and I'll I'll try to get away for an hour and run this meeting as usual. 677 01:04:52.230 --> 01:04:53.740 benji: but don't 678 01:04:54.590 --> 01:04:59.439 benji: be be prepared to have a conversation, even if I'm not here. But I'll I'll try to be here. 679 01:05:00.220 --> 01:05:01.379 skaught: We'll do our best, sir. 680 01:05:01.803 --> 01:05:02.649 benji: Thank you. 681 01:05:03.340 --> 01:05:04.510 skaught: Have a good week if we don't. 682 01:05:04.860 --> 01:05:06.079 benji: Thank you very much. 683 01:05:07.160 --> 01:05:12.829 benji: and hope to see you all next next week, or or possibly 2 weeks, if I if I don't manage to make it. 684 01:05:14.140 --> 01:05:15.876 Thomas Howell: Thanks. Benji, thanks everyone. 685 01:05:16.310 --> 01:05:17.859 Ralf Koller: Everyone have a nice weekend.