larowlan   [Today at 2:06 PM]
@jhodgdon (she/her) @ambermatz ping...some feedback about help topics patch
215 replies

larowlan   [2 hours ago]
i'll put it on the hook_help issue

ambermatz   [2 hours ago]
thank you

jhodgdon (she/her)   [2 hours ago]
We are still waiting on an eval from @webchick or another product manager on the help topics patch

larowlan   [2 hours ago]
yep, I pinged her to remind her, so she's  aware

larowlan   [2 hours ago]
and I flagged with catch about the RM requirements

larowlan   [2 hours ago]
which is the feedback I have

jhodgdon (she/her)   [2 hours ago]
thanks for keeping it alive @larowlan!

jhodgdon (she/her)   [2 hours ago]
it would be good to start working on the "get it to release" stuff sometime. But it's hard to get motivated to do so if we're not even sure it's getting into Core.

ambermatz   [2 hours ago]
@larowlan FYI if you’ll be at DrupalCon:
BoF: Help Topics in Core Rm BoF 3 Exhibit Hall Level 4
Wednesday, April 10⋅11:00 – 11:30am

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
@ambermatz sorry, other side of the world for me

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
no worries. :slightly_smiling_face:

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
@larowlan I see your comment on the hook_help() issue. Does that mean you want a plan there before the Topics patch is committed, like as a prerequisite to committing it? If so I can work on fleshing that out tomorrow.

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
yes, that's correct

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
OK, it's on my To Do list for tomorrow then.

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
and feedback from @gaborhojtsy @webchick from a PM perspective too

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
unless you want to take on that @ambermatz?

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
@larowlan I am not sure what you mean "and feedback..." ?

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
I would but I’m short on time this week. @jhodgdon (she/her) If you have time tomorrow to work on it, that would be great.

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
you mean we need to flesh out a plan and get it approved by gaborchick?

webchick   [1 hour ago]
I’m SO sorry that fell off my radar... any way one of you folks could re-demo it on Tuesdays UX meeting? If not I will do my best to get to it tomorrow

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
Even though there’s no UI anymore?

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
Yeah there is no UI. You can simplytest.me to get the patch applied and look at the tests, but other than that it is all looking at Twig files to see the developer experience.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Yeah weird. I guess I haven’t had time to figure out why I’m being asked to do a product manager review on something with no UI :sweat_smile:

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
sorry, I mean there is RM sign off required (the comment on hook_help issue) but also PM signoff, which is this comment https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2920309?page=1#comment-12961841
Drupal.org
Add experimental module for Help Topics
Note on issue credits At the end of this summary is a list of people who helped make this patch. They have not all commented on this issue, because the module was developed in a sandbox project. Please credit them. Thanks! Problem/Motivation
Nov 1st, 2017

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
oh ok @larowlan

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
@webchick it was just to make sure that the patch as it stood was still a step forward for UX

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Oh I guess a review of the help page itself and the topics therein?

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
this comment: https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2920309?page=1#comment-12961841

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
@webchick you can just sign off then and say "no product manager feedback is needed, as there is no UI for this"

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Yep cool. Sorry it’s been a busy couple weeks.

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
@webchick I wouldn't take those topics as Gold. They are preliminary.

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
we have an issue to make more/better topics. They are there to illustrate the system.

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
`I put forward that I felt it was ready and asked Product Managers to check the current scope and the topics provided to ensure it addresses their UX and product goals.`

webchick   [1 hour ago]
If a screenshot gets posted that UX review could happen in minutes; else hopefully tomorrow.

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
so @webchick I guess the question is whether the Help Topics system that devs can add to their modules is good for users

larowlan   [1 hour ago]
:point_up:

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
we don't have a screenshot? Let me see.

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
ok we don't have a screenshot. I will simplytest.me and make one. just give me a few minutes.

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
Meanwhile, I just queued the User Guide tests on DrupalCI for the first time! I am hopeful that it will make lots of gorgeous screenshots and database file backups. !!

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
Or crash spectacularly. :)

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
@webchick -- go to https://d0id7.ply.st (a simplytest.me site), log in as admin/admin, and then visit https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
or I can make you a screenshot if you prefer

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
I’m adding a couple of screenshots to 2920309

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
ok I was just going to but I'll let you. I actually need to run out... you can feel free to use that simplytestme thing

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
I got it

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
great!

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
ttfn

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
Thursday is game night (but we start in the afternoon)

jhodgdon (she/her)   [1 hour ago]
anyway tomorrow I will make a better plan on that hook_help issue.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
@webchick Screenshots https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2920309?page=1#comment-12992479
Drupal.org
Add experimental module for Help Topics
Note on issue credits At the end of this summary is a list of people who helped make this patch. They have not all commented on this issue, because the module was developed in a sandbox project. Please credit them. Thanks! Problem/Motivation
Nov 1st, 2017

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Yooou are the best!! ,3

webchick   [1 hour ago]
er :heart:

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
lmk if you want screenshots of a twig file as well or the file  directory structure

webchick   [1 hour ago]
So one basic question… why are the Topics (useful help) beneath module overviews (un-useful help)?

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
because re-ordering help sections is not a thing (yet)

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
@webchick https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2994748
Drupal.org
Make a way for Help Page Sections to be ordered
Problem/Motivation On [#2920309], one thing that came up was that we wanted to move the new section for Help Topics on admin/help, so that it appears before the section for Module Overviews (hook_help() output). Sections on admin/help are created by plugins of type HelpSection (each is an annotated class). Currently, they have no weight, so they are just ordered arbitrarily by the HelpSectionPluginManager. Proposed resolution
Aug 23rd, 2018

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Ok cool. That’s the main thing that stands out to me, because the primary audience of this interface is someone who can access anything at all in the admin panel. Not necessarily a module developer or site builder or anyone who even knows what a module is.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Thanks, following that now.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
And for that reason, I’d remove that bit from the overview text under topics. In fact, maybe remove the text altogether? Is it not self explanatory?

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
@webchick fyi the permissions for this module are “access administration pages”

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Hm. Although I see the other sections have explanatory text so good enough.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
@ambermatz Yes, exactly. But someone needs that to access, for example, admin/content.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
AFAIK anyway

webchick   [1 hour ago]
or actually maybe we added a separate perm for that now

webchick   [1 hour ago]
But at any rate, how the text ends up on this page is irrelevant to the person who needs help. :slightly_smiling_face:

webchick   [1 hour ago]
That’s just a nit tho.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
we used to have a separate permission but nixed it in favor of access admin pages

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Ah that was it. :slightly_smiling_face:

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
b/c it wasn’t really doing anything more than “access admin pages”

webchick   [1 hour ago]
k, branched over to Jennifer’s simplytest.me now… these help topic pages other than the one you screenshotted are VERY basic

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Oh, I see. They’re meant as overview to the nested links below. Hm.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
yes indeed. we didn’t see the point of spending time writing “more better” topics until the module was committed (which has seemed very much a question mark)

webchick   [1 hour ago]
This is fair.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
https://www.drupal.org/project/2369943/issues/2687107
Drupal.org
Write some core help topics
It would be good if this module had some more topics that would actually provide help in how to use Core. The suggested list of topics below is based partly on: * The User Guide project -- https://www.drupal.org/project/user_guide -- although we probably cannot take its text verbatim since it is under a different license. * The existing hook_help() module overviews may have some good suggestions. That text can be used verbatim. Things to cover
Mar 14th, 2016

webchick   [1 hour ago]
It’s unclear exactly what level of rigor I should be applying here too… if this is just to get it in as an alpha experimental module it doesn’t really matter, but *generally* we do not commit things that introduce “critical” problems we need to address later. Like leaving Drupal in an unshippable state.

These aren’t “quite” that… they don’t literally say “lorem ipsum” for example. But yet…

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
yes there is this concept of “top level” topics — those are the ones that appear under topics heading on admin/help. Other topic pages can be reached via Related topics section in a topic page. very basic at this point.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Yeah, what’s interesting about that is 13 years or whatever of admin/help has conditioned me to completely ignore those bottom links

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Because for module overview pages they’re generally “FYI”

webchick   [1 hour ago]
but here they’re like the primary reason you come to this page.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Or not here https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.config_basic

webchick   [1 hour ago]
but here.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.menu_overview (well actually that one doesn’t have related topics, so feels like a bug)

webchick   [1 hour ago]
@ambermatz So generally speaking when we introduce a new API or something else that’s “we’re gonna start this now but convert everything over to it over time”, the idea is you put in at least one (preferably 3) strong reference implementations at the same time. But leave the other 97 for sub-issues.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
it’s really a chicken and egg situation we’re in. because for this to be actually really useful means to commit this as part of help (not as a separate module help_topics) and to deprecate help, and really clean house on admin/help altogether. I think this is better explained in https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3027054
Drupal.org
Help Topics module roadmap: the path to beta and stable
Problem/Motivation Once [#2920309] has landed this issue will track the necessary work to get the module to beta and then a stable state (at which point it should be merged into the core Help module) Proposed resolution Release Plan
Jan 19th

webchick   [1 hour ago]
This feels like we do have at least one strong reference (like https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.config_error seems pretty good!) but it’s pretty buried and hard to find. Hm.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Yeah, let me read that for a sec.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Sorry for being so out of the loop!

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
no problem.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
basically we want to move forward with the system of adding a help topic via a twig template that is placed in a module’s help_topics directory. the content of the help topics that ship with core will be tackled as soon as it’s committed in some form. But if we need to improve the content first before any commit, then that’s something we need to know.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
I am more confident now that we have the support of the core committers and would be willing to tackle improving the topic content in good faith that it will get committed.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
if that is indeed a blocker.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
I’m not sure it is, still pondering.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
:slightly_smiling_face:

webchick   [1 hour ago]
I will say (and can say so in issue too) that getting topic-based help has been a UX team goal since the dawn of time.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Or at least since 2008, when we did our first usability test of Drupal at U of M

webchick   [1 hour ago]
And saw people try desperately to find answers there and… fail. hard.

ambermatz   [1 hour ago]
I can’t believe that 2008 was 11 years ago. OMG.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
I know, right. :disappointed:

webchick   [1 hour ago]
@ambermatz so on the content piece, I guess where I’m struggling is I got VERY lost when I was clicking around.

webchick   [1 hour ago]
Because I clicked the links https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help in basically top/down order.

ambermatz   [45 minutes ago]
@webchick I don’t disagree with you there.

ambermatz   [44 minutes ago]
this thing has been stripped back so much just to get it committed, we haven’t focused at all on giving thought to improving the navigation or organization.

webchick   [44 minutes ago]
So the first one was https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.config_basic which was kinda like “meh. this isn’t a wondrous help page of wonder (like it’s a far cry from some of the User Guide awesomeness), but it is indeed topic-based help.

webchick   [44 minutes ago]
Then my next click was https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.menu_overview which was basically “TBD”

ambermatz   [44 minutes ago]
no arguments

webchick   [43 minutes ago]
Then https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.maintenance which I also misinterpreted as “TBD” but actually if you click the link I’ve been conditioned to ignore https://d0id7.ply.st/admin/help/topic/core.config_error is a LOVELY help page

ambermatz   [43 minutes ago]
the focus has all been on the underpinnings and not on the navigation or finding an actual useful help topic.

webchick   [43 minutes ago]
And yes, I can COMPLETELY understand that. We really need a retrospective on this once we get it in core because we need to figure out how our Idea -> Approval -> Code -> Commit process got so utterly boloxed up for this. :disappointed:

webchick   [42 minutes ago]
Yeah, totally fair.

Slackbot   [42 minutes ago]
*/me* is not supported in threads. Sorry!

ambermatz   [42 minutes ago]
nods

webchick   [42 minutes ago]
What I guess I’m wondering is if we could strip this patch even further (EEP) so the only things there are actual help pages. Like if we only had ONE topic and that topic was well-written and had a couple sub-topics, done.

ambermatz   [41 minutes ago]
And I think that’s why the UX team is so important. Focusing on the API and leaving out the UX considerations is bad form.

webchick   [41 minutes ago]
That would feel better than committing something that’s so obviously @todo in various places

ambermatz   [41 minutes ago]
noted

webchick   [41 minutes ago]
Esp. since the ideal thing would be to brag about this as a great improvement for 8.7 (ideally), but that means it has to feel great to people using it, and not confuisng.

webchick   [41 minutes ago]
“putting our best foot forward” as it were

ambermatz   [41 minutes ago]
Yeah, it’s not to bragging level awesomeness yet.

webchick   [41 minutes ago]
But did the directive to have multiple example help pages come from the framework managers?

webchick   [41 minutes ago]
Like as a way to test the API?

webchick   [40 minutes ago]
Honestly, TOPIC-BASED HELP is bragging rights ALONE.

webchick   [40 minutes ago]
I just want you folks to look frigging AWESOME. :smile:

webchick   [40 minutes ago]
Ok, I’m going to wrap this into some kind of coherent comment. I’d like to sleep on it before removing the tag tho if that’s ok.

webchick   [39 minutes ago]
Because my spidey sense is “not yet” but I’m also very sensitive to the fact that this team has been zigged and zagged all over the place on this poor patch.

webchick   [39 minutes ago]
And I REALLY REALLY REALLY want this in

webchick   [39 minutes ago]
So I’m trying to think if there’s a path of “simplest thing that could possibly work” to address some of those concderns

ambermatz   [39 minutes ago]
no the topics were written by Jennifer and we’ve just left that as-is since its conception as a proof-of-concept, with the idea that we would come back and flesh it out. However, I think Alex Pott has also brought up some concerns as to the limitations of how topics can be organized (hierarchy, etc).

webchick   [38 minutes ago]
Yep. I mean ideally we want this to match users’ expectations of help from other systems.

webchick   [38 minutes ago]
And generally speaking that’s hierarchical, organized into general topics, etc.

webchick   [38 minutes ago]
with a search (which i saw was on the roadmap)

ambermatz   [38 minutes ago]
I don’t want it to be committed just to spare our feelings. I want it to be committed so that we can move it forward. It just seems stuck in this chicken/egg situation for so long and I just have never been sure about what’s “good enough”.

webchick   [37 minutes ago]
@ambermatz can I ask another question that I swear is not intended to make you scream? :smile:

webchick   [37 minutes ago]
But…

ambermatz   [37 minutes ago]
I’m cool. I had my coffee. :slightly_smiling_face:

ambermatz   [37 minutes ago]
ask away

webchick   [37 minutes ago]
Is there any way of moving the module overviews to a separate, secondary tab so they are more hidden? This would bump the topic-based help to the forefront, along with tours, which is where we would presumably put other actually useful help.

ambermatz   [37 minutes ago]
anything’s possible I suppose.

webchick   [36 minutes ago]
Yeah, probably not easy though. And that would be a behaviour change for existing sites so meh

webchick   [36 minutes ago]
Can we call it *Topics* ? :wink:

ambermatz   [36 minutes ago]
I would love to bury module overviews somehow.

webchick   [36 minutes ago]
Er with *s

webchick   [36 minutes ago]
So that it’s alphabetically first hahahaha

ambermatz   [36 minutes ago]
lol

webchick   [36 minutes ago]
Or call Module Overview “Useless Crap” :wink:

webchick   [36 minutes ago]
I kid, I kid.

ambermatz   [36 minutes ago]
“Unclaimed Baggage”

webchick   [35 minutes ago]
It’s just dang. The hierarchy of that page is so backwards.

webchick   [35 minutes ago]
Hahahahaha

ambermatz   [35 minutes ago]
I know.

webchick   [35 minutes ago]
However, I think the case can be made that we haven’t written a bunch of these yet, so CURRENTLY you get more fleshed out help from the other section, as long as you have the divine power to know that admin/content is provided by Node odule. :P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ambermatz   [35 minutes ago]
I think this is partially why it would be better to have this be part of help/ instead of as a separate experimental module.

webchick   [35 minutes ago]
Yes, there seemed to be a lot of support for that.

webchick   [34 minutes ago]
But I guess the risk there is that if you’re hacking on a core module there’s no “middle ground” place to be, so it has to be stable from the get-go

ambermatz   [34 minutes ago]
yeah

webchick   [34 minutes ago]
(That doesn’t mean a full suite of help topics, and doesn’t mean it can’t not have search for a time.)

webchick   [34 minutes ago]
(wow that was like a TRIPLE negative) (edited)

ambermatz   [34 minutes ago]
lol

ambermatz   [31 minutes ago]
@webchick Maybe what we need to know from you is, how 2920309 (chicken) is or is not dependent on 3027054 (egg). Which comes first? https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2920309
https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3027054 (edited)

ambermatz   [30 minutes ago]
That’s where xjm and catch lost me. I’m not sure what the way forward exactly is. It seems like we’re waiting on you, but I’m not so sure.

ambermatz   [30 minutes ago]
Given that the issues that preclude 2920309 seem to mean completing more of 3027054

ambermatz   [29 minutes ago]
(and understanding that I’m the novice here when it comes to core dev and process)

webchick   [20 minutes ago]
Ok, tried to formulate the above BLARRRGHH into a coherent comment.

webchick   [20 minutes ago]
…which is still posting lol

webchick   [20 minutes ago]
https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2920309?page=1#comment-12992512
Drupal.org
Add experimental module for Help Topics
Note on issue credits At the end of this summary is a list of people who helped make this patch. They have not all commented on this issue, because the module was developed in a sandbox project. Please credit them. Thanks! Problem/Motivation
Nov 1st, 2017

ambermatz   [20 minutes ago]
@webchick thank you very much

webchick   [20 minutes ago]
Well, maybe read it first. :wink:

andypost   [19 minutes ago]
@ambermatz surely we need to get API in core first, then roadmap

webchick   [19 minutes ago]
@ambermatz as far as chicken/egg, it’s customary for a basic implementation (e.g. https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2920309) to come first, and for there to be a “meta/plan” roadmap issue that tracks what’s left for further milestones. (e.g. https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3027054)
Drupal.org
Add experimental module for Help Topics
Note on issue credits At the end of this summary is a list of people who helped make this patch. They have not all commented on this issue, because the module was developed in a sandbox project. Please credit them. Thanks! Problem/Motivation
Nov 1st, 2017

ambermatz   [18 minutes ago]
ok

webchick   [18 minutes ago]
You can see this in other initiatives; for example, https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2962110 added a basic media library implementation
Drupal.org
Add the Media Library module to Drupal core
Problem/Motivation The current Media administration experience is not very visual, and does not look like what most people expect from a CMS. Proposed resolution We should update the view at /admin/content/media to look more modern - displaying a grid of media cards that show a preview of the media and metadata (attributes/fields) that make sense for each media item.
Apr 18th, 2018

webchick   [18 minutes ago]
(as an experimental module, albeit beta)

webchick   [17 minutes ago]
and https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2834729 is the roadmap issue of what’s left before we can remove “experimental” and call it stable
Drupal.org
[META] Roadmap to stabilize Media Library
Problem/Motivation For Drupal 8.6, we shipped with an experimental media library that: Provides a nice visual interface for browsing through all the media items in your site Can be opened from a node form (or similar author-facing context) in order to visually select media items to reference in a field Provides a way to upload several media assets into Drupal, quickly enter metadata for them, and reference them in a field -- all without having to leave the page you're on
Dec 12th, 2016

webchick   [17 minutes ago]
There are similar things for Layout Builder, Workspaces, etc.

webchick   [17 minutes ago]
So what xjm and alexpott are probably trying to do there is flesh out the ENTIRE list of concerns so that we can discern from there what’s “must have / should have / could have” for each “phase”

ambermatz   [17 minutes ago]
ok yeah. that makes sense.

webchick   [16 minutes ago]
ok cool

webchick   [16 minutes ago]
That’s amazig since i’ve had VERY little sleep hahaha

webchick   [15 minutes ago]
@ambermatz So one way this could go is I could just grit my teeth and say “well there are follow-up issues for everything I identified here, and it’s not going into 8.7 as beta anyway, so we realistically have until 8.8”

webchick   [15 minutes ago]
and that’s not a bad way to go necessarily

webchick   [15 minutes ago]
but figured I’d get that up and see what other peoples’ opinions are.

larowlan   [13 minutes ago]
question: if it goes into 8.7 (alpha) with list of 'these are block-ish' that MUST be addressed before beta..does that solve the chicken egg scenario?

andypost   [13 minutes ago]
@webchick it looks good to cut down some TBD topics and use better topics from sandbox

larowlan   [13 minutes ago]
i.e if those are not resolved, we yank it to 8.8...which is what we did with layout builder

webchick   [13 minutes ago]
Oh, interesting.

larowlan   [13 minutes ago]
i.e we put alpha experimental in ... but they don't get shipped in a stable if they're still alpha

webchick   [12 minutes ago]
That might indeed, but I feel like that’s a release manager call

webchick   [12 minutes ago]
but having until late march vs. like a week from now would certainly help

larowlan   [12 minutes ago]
agree

ambermatz   [11 minutes ago]
@webchick I feel (personally) that this module has the general support of the core committers. And I feel like the API has good support now. If the next steps are actually getting a patch going for moving this into help, re-arranging the admin/help page, and writing good topics, then I’m personally on-board with that. I don’t think it would be good to ship something that is going to be a confusing/bad experience.

ambermatz   [11 minutes ago]
Maybe I should put that into a comment on the issue.

larowlan   [11 minutes ago]
actually, it looks like that is already policy @webchick https://www.drupal.org/core/experimental#alpha
Drupal.org
Experimental modules in Drupal 8
Drupal 8 core introduces the concept of experimental modules. These are modules that are provided with Drupal core for testing purposes, but that are not yet fully supported. Experimental modules are included in the Core (Experimental) package on the Extend page of a Drupal site (/admin/modules). # What is the purpose of experimental modules?
Jan 26th, 2016

webchick   [11 minutes ago]
@ambermatz Well awesome. That does seem to be the agreed-upon next steps from what I’m reading.

larowlan   [10 minutes ago]
```If an alpha experimental module does not reach beta-level stability before the alpha phase of a given minor release (e.g. 8.5.0-alpha1), it will be left in the new development branch (e.g. 8.6.x), but removed from the release branch (e.g. 8.5.x) before the alpha release is tagged. As of Drupal 8.5.x, we will no longer ship alpha-level experimental modules in stable releases of Drupal 8.```

webchick   [11 minutes ago]
But unless all that gets done in a week that almost certainly means not 8.7, unless we do some hail mary shit like @larowlan is referring to. :wink:

ambermatz   [10 minutes ago]
I just think there was hesitancy on really re-vamping admin/help and hook_help and writing awesome topics because we weren’t sure if this idea would be accepted.

larowlan   [10 minutes ago]
oh..before the 'alpha phase'

larowlan   [10 minutes ago]
so yeah, that feels hard

webchick   [10 minutes ago]
@ambermatz I get worried about “radically revamp” because one thing I do NOT want to do is put “fix all of the brokenness of help” in front of “commit a topic-based help system”

larowlan   [10 minutes ago]
so how about this... as soon as 8.8 is opened, we put it in...with a list of things that have to be fixed before 8.8 alpha

ambermatz   [9 minutes ago]
yeah I worry about that too

larowlan   [9 minutes ago]
that way the chicken egg is fixed

webchick   [9 minutes ago]
like we should find a subset of those things that are “must have, before commit” and another subset of those things that are “must have, before beta” and yet another subset that’s “must have, before stable”

larowlan   [9 minutes ago]
agree ^

ambermatz   [9 minutes ago]
+1

webchick   [9 minutes ago]
Ok well then!

webchick   [9 minutes ago]
I’m really sorry I would love to summarize that but I needed to run like an hour ago lol

ambermatz   [8 minutes ago]
ok

webchick   [8 minutes ago]
I am sleeping outside tonight and have to run get WARM THINGS

webchick   [8 minutes ago]
or that will be very very miserable :wink:

ambermatz   [8 minutes ago]
@webchick thank you very much for your time and the discussion

webchick   [8 minutes ago]
Of COURSE! I’m SO sorry ti dropped off my radar and you waited a week unnecessarily. :disappointed:

webchick   [7 minutes ago]
Or probably longer than that. :grimacing:

ambermatz   [7 minutes ago]
:wink:

webchick   [7 minutes ago]
But anyway, TL;DR YOU ROCK And I’m really trying hard not to be a stickler. Let’s put our heads together and figure out a way for the initial step of this module to be great, but not PERFECT, and get things rolling in 8.8!

ambermatz   [6 minutes ago]
:rainbow-sheep:

ambermatz   [5 minutes ago]
Copy/pasting some of this last bit into a comment…